To not answer my phone when I’m annual leave?

[Elsiebear90]

I work in the NHS am clinical, fairly senior (band 7), started a new job in September and have witnessed and heard awful things about the management since I started. There is very high staff turnover in my department and morale is very low.

I have ten days of annual leave over the Xmas period, with two days during this where I am oncall. We all received an email today from our manager stating that as we have five members of staff off sick with Covid we need to be available over the Christmas period for work including additional on calls, which means some of us will have to come in when we’re on annual leave in the “worst case scenario”. Everyone I have spoken to has told me they just won’t answer their phones if called and that this could be prevented by the manager cancelling the outpatient clinics and/or diverting our emergency oncall service to a nearby hospital, which she apparently refuses to do.

My question is firstly does anyone with NHS knowledge know if she cancel our annual leave with next to no notice (she’s citing covid as an excuse for this) and also would it be unreasonable of me to not answer my phone if called?

My feelings are that it’s not really annual leave if the entire time I have to be available for work, I’m essentially oncall and not being paid to do so. I’ve seen online that NHS policy appears to be that adequate notice periods (length of annual leave plus one day) need to be applied and all other options exhausted before cancelling annual leave and this doesn’t seem to be the case here.

I’m bottom of band 7, so 40k, have over a decade of experience and a masters degree though so I wouldn’t consider myself particularly well paid, even though I recognise for the NHS it’s not a bad wage.

You're either working or you're not. I wouldn't answer your phone on the days you're not working or on call. Your manager is a piss taker, it's interesting that she can't work over Christmas. Deputy managers sound like a joke as well

After a year like we have had, then we all need some down time and let of some steam. Whether that is lie ins, a few drinks, shopping etc. I would get some boundaries in quick smart; it's a new role and you don't want them to think they can have it both ways all the time

Amused at the vibes of you are paid well so just do it. No disrespect to OP but band 7 money isn't that great, especially as she does no weekends. Money isn’t anything anyway especially when people are burned out

Ignore the martyrs, they seem to be out in force today

Bollocks to giving up your annual leave. Why the fuck do people think so many are going off sick? Being burnt out means you are extra-vulnerable to infection. That's what's happening in the NHS, and managerial staff are useless - as OP says, cancelling things would solve the problem

NHS staff are constantly shat on. Take your annual leave, OP, and go further - block all hospital numbers except for when you are on call.

So that’s why myself and some others have been able to have so much time off, there’s a band 8 with two weeks off, a band 6 with two weeks off and another 7 with 10 days off, as examples

But this is no longer relevant due to staff being off sick with covid, and a pandemic that hasn’t peaked yet. Taking 10 days or 2 weeks is fair enough when it’s quiet and fully staffed, demanding to keep all that leave when there’s a crisis brewing comes across as inflexible and selfish especially for a B7.

Are you sure the outpatient clinics will be run as usual or are you likely to be redeployed to the front line/wards that desperately need trained staff?

If the outpatient clinics are cancelled that’s a lot of extra pressure on the team when everyone’s finished their Xmas leave. They may not be urgent clinics but clearly they’re important and will impact wait times/funding/patients well-being if put off due to too many on leave.

In every trust I’ve worked for nobody was allowed to take more than a few days off in December. Even without a pandemic you have winter pressures and services grinding to a halt.

Mate, do NOT answer your phone. You’re on AL & as a 7 it’s not actually your job to do this. I am a top 7 & have just 5 mins ago told my line manager I’m muting her WhatsApp’s for the next 10 days. I. Am. Done.

Seems like you are in the wrong job if you dont think you can be called in a crisis.

@Viviennemary

Seems like you are in the wrong job if you dont think you can be called in a crisis.

Have you read the thread? It’s not a crisis, she could postpone some outpatient clinics and no patients would come to any harm as she has enough staff to cover emergencies which is what happens over weekends, nights and bank holidays anyway, she just doesn’t want to and prefers to call people in during their annual leave instead. If it was a crisis no one would mind coming in, it’s just poor planning.

In any case it should be all in the terms and conditions of employment on what is acceptable in these circumstances. I don't think outpatient clinics should be postponed. People have died because of these postponements.

@stonebrambleboy

I'm retired NHS and thought you were being unreasonable however 'the manager is non clinical so won't be coming in' changes my take on this. If she can apply a different strategy as you say to avoid any problems with staffing then definitely turn your phone off and enjoy your holiday time with your family.

Oh she will be on call throughout. it just doesn't suit the NHS management bashers to admit that they work as hard as clinical staff.

No one is going to die if their none urgent appointment is postponed a few weeks, we’re not investigating cancer, they’re routine follow ups that can be safely done remotely, but a small number of patients want to be seen in person instead, think of them like a yearly dental check up, with emergency ones still being seen, any urgent appointments can be done by the oncall staff.

So policy states that annual leave can be cancelled, but only with adequate notice (length of leave plus one day) and in exceptional circumstances as a last resort, which isn’t being followed here. She won’t actually be officially cancelling leave though she will just expect everyone to be contactable during their leave and be willing to sacrifice it if and when she asks. Hence, my question about whether I should just not answer the phone

LOL management don't even work half as hard as clinical front line staff. They don't have a clue.

It’s not a crisis, she could postpone some outpatient clinics and no patients

Erm, it is a crisis. I'm in the NHS as a Clinical Lead and a GP. At the moment, on top of the ongoing covid response, we (the whole NHS) is expected to do the following:

• Continue clearing the elective backlog that built up during the year so those non-urgent patients you see in your out patient clinics don't decline in health and the backlog doesn't get higher just as we are about to enter another wave of the pandemic on top of the usual winter pressures
• Vaccinate the entire fucking adult population
• Manage the increase in admissions that we know will come from omicron
• Continue to deliver on targets
• Manage the everyday emergencies - and we know what Christmas and New Year does to A&E presentations
• Somehow magic up care home places and social care packages out of nowhere for patients that are fit for discharge but are bed blocking
• Do all the above with fewer staff than ever before and a high sickness rate

Yes, we're all going to have a fab, fab Christmas and all those managers you think are sat at home with phones off and their feet up are actually dealing with the crises that will be happening every day.

To be blunt, at Band 7 you are senior enough to take on the responsibility, but you are obviously not experienced enough to understand that the pressures begin way, way above your paygrade and come from our dear govt itself.

The manager is definitely not oncall because she’s not clinical, so she can’t come in and do any of the clinical work, she actually works from home the vast majority of the time and conducts all these discussions over teams of emails. When she is on annual leave her deputy managers take over so she isn’t contacted.

If you are expected to be available to be called in, you need the paid enhancement for that as you are “on-call” not on annual leave.

@SecretSpAD

It’s not a crisis, she could postpone some outpatient clinics and no patients

Erm, it is a crisis. I'm in the NHS as a Clinical Lead and a GP. At the moment, on top of the ongoing covid response, we (the whole NHS) is expected to do the following:

• Continue clearing the elective backlog that built up during the year so those non-urgent patients you see in your out patient clinics don't decline in health and the backlog doesn't get higher just as we are about to enter another wave of the pandemic on top of the usual winter pressures
• Vaccinate the entire fucking adult population
• Manage the increase in admissions that we know will come from omicron
• Continue to deliver on targets
• Manage the everyday emergencies - and we know what Christmas and New Year does to A&E presentations
• Somehow magic up care home places and social care packages out of nowhere for patients that are fit for discharge but are bed blocking
• Do all the above with fewer staff than ever before and a high sickness rate

Yes, we're all going to have a fab, fab Christmas and all those managers you think are sat at home with phones off and their feet up are actually dealing with the crises that will be happening every day.

To be blunt, at Band 7 you are senior enough to take on the responsibility, but you are obviously not experienced enough to understand that the pressures begin way, way above your paygrade and come from our dear govt itself.

To be blunt as a GP you don’t understand the area I work in, I am telling you that cancelling a couple of routine outpatient clinics in my department is not a crisis, we do not have a backlog of patients to see as we have been remotely managing the vast majority of them throughout the pandemic which takes a lot less time than face to face appointments, so we have quite a few appointment slots available that they could be moved into in January. No one is going to die because their appointment got postponed a couple of weeks. They’re the equivalent of yearly dental check ups.

The paid enhancement is £20 a session, it's not worth it. OP, postponing clinics is not a solution, not in the current climate. If you're non-essential/non-urgent (not clear really as you do an on-call service) should I assume you're closed the weekends and bank holidays? So getting that break? If I were you I'd just cancel my annual leave. I know it's not ideal but I'd rather go into work and use the AL another time than sit at home wondering if I needed to go in, unable to relax.

DP is a nurse and they had all AL cancelled over the next two weeks at our site. It's awful but that's the situation we're in.

Some NHS colleagues being very rude on this thread. Not very professional yourselves tbh.

FFS- are you sure you are a band 7?? Can you not grasp the longer term issues cancelling procedures has and the impact on the rest of the system??
If you can’t hack it step aside.

Also- why you may not feel the appointments aren’t that important they will be to the person getting them!! Not having could cause anxiety etc putting strain on other services!! Wise up

It’s not a procedure FFS it’s a yearly check up that can be done from the patient’s home, but a small minority of them prefer to come into hospital to have it done instead because “they like to see someone face to face” and we usually oblige to keep them happy and because there’s not many of them who request face to face check ups, so it’s not normally an issue.

The oncall system is for emergencies, not routine check ups, which I am more than happy to cover (as I already do frequently despite being paid a pittance for).

@MissM2912

FFS- are you sure you are a band 7?? Can you not grasp the longer term issues cancelling procedures has and the impact on the rest of the system?? If you can’t hack it step aside.

Do you not think NHS staff are entitled to annual leave? What a horrible attitude...

Not that anyone will care but it's bugging me.
In my previous post of course I meant 'senior', NOT 'superior!'

As I said, it's my partner not me who's Band 8 NHS, but I know at the top of Band 7(patient facing, in and out patient) answering calls whilst on AL would have only been done as an extreme courtesy, and in no way expected....even on Band 8 getting fairly senior AL is still AL....
There are martyrs in every job, and if you're genuinely happy to be one that's fine, but no everyone is/can be/wants to one.

Yes your manager is being unreasonable. They should be contingency planning. It's a different matter if the service is forced to its knees when those plans can't support a service but to not have those plans in place is unacceptable when there is a really high chance of things getting difficult.
Are you never of a union? I would be contacting them. I would also be saying to your manager that this is not acceptable. If you can't do that alone you should bring this up at a staff meeting with the other senior staff but must support and back each other

@MissM2912

Also- why you may not feel the appointments aren’t that important they will be to the person getting them!! Not having could cause anxiety etc putting strain on other services!! Wise up

Wow so you think people should have their annual leave cancelled last minute because a patient doesn’t want to wait a few more weeks for their yearly check up that they could have any time?

What about the stress and anxiety this causes to NHS staff who deserve a bit of time off to relax? It’s not a clinical emergency, it’s an inconvenience. Compassion goes both ways, it’s no wonder we can’t retain staff if this is what the public expect from us.

The more senior you get, the less reasonable it gets to refuse to answer your phone or to refuse to go in due to an emergency situation. That's why you are paid more. Higher salary = greater responsibility and accountability.

If you are suffering from total burn-out and exhaustion and need an uninterrupted break for mental health reasons, then fine. Otherwise, suck it up.

@MissM2912

FFS- are you sure you are a band 7?? Can you not grasp the longer term issues cancelling procedures has and the impact on the rest of the system?? If you can’t hack it step aside.

It would appear not. And I also said that I was a Clinical Lead so I'm working across primary and secondary care at a very senior (national) level, so guess what? I do know what I'm talking about.