To not answer my phone when I’m annual leave?

[Elsiebear90]

I work in the NHS am clinical, fairly senior (band 7), started a new job in September and have witnessed and heard awful things about the management since I started. There is very high staff turnover in my department and morale is very low.

I have ten days of annual leave over the Xmas period, with two days during this where I am oncall. We all received an email today from our manager stating that as we have five members of staff off sick with Covid we need to be available over the Christmas period for work including additional on calls, which means some of us will have to come in when we’re on annual leave in the “worst case scenario”. Everyone I have spoken to has told me they just won’t answer their phones if called and that this could be prevented by the manager cancelling the outpatient clinics and/or diverting our emergency oncall service to a nearby hospital, which she apparently refuses to do.

My question is firstly does anyone with NHS knowledge know if she cancel our annual leave with next to no notice (she’s citing covid as an excuse for this) and also would it be unreasonable of me to not answer my phone if called?

My feelings are that it’s not really annual leave if the entire time I have to be available for work, I’m essentially oncall and not being paid to do so. I’ve seen online that NHS policy appears to be that adequate notice periods (length of annual leave plus one day) need to be applied and all other options exhausted before cancelling annual leave and this doesn’t seem to be the case here.

@MissM2912

They don’t have to be on call as we also are not an emergency service, but for the greater good and to make life easier in January it is worth it. What goes around comes around and I am a big believer if you pull together as a team when times are tough you will find you get a lot more support when you need help yourself further down the line.

Except that’s not happening, I agreed to swap an oncall at last minute (the same day) because of staffing issues which then got turned into me doing both on-calls plus another, so three instead of one and I wasn’t even asked if that would be okay, and you know how many extra the deputy managers are doing? None.

Maybe in your line of work what goes around comes around and loyalty is rewarded, but not where I work, here you give an inch and they take a mile, the more you agree to the more they pile on you and they less they appreciate it. My goodwill has been abused too much already for me to happily volunteer to give up my annual leave because “we all need to pull together as a team”.

Well you are now a band seven and in a position to raise these issues. I would suggest if you want to be a band 8 you think very hard about your next moves.

@MissM2912

Also- as I am really wound up about the level of ignorance shown- think about the below scenario: Patient with health anxiety has appointment cancelled as no one willing to cut short their fortnights holiday. Patient becomes more and more anxious. Patient tries to see GP. GPs closed/ can’t get appointment. Patients anxiety rises further. Patient presents at already massively over stretched A and E. Is it really a wise idea to ‘postpone’ appointments during the height of a public health crisis?

NHS employee works throughout pandemic. NHS employee becomes anxious/stressed/depressed/burnt out NHS employee tries to take leave. Has their leave cancelled because there's no one available to cover shifts. NHS employee anxiety rises further NHS employee goes off sick, causing worse staffing issues and for much longer than a 2 week AL period. Is it really a wise idea to cancel AL?

Saying that, I think there's a compromise to be made and am willing to be flexible, but there is an undercurrent of NHS staff are robots here.

OP is getting annual leave- just might not be a full fortnight. And she isn’t working front line on a covid ward- it is an outpatients clinic.

To be honest i think it’s poor leadership they’ve just sent an email out about this. Depending on your area, if it’s very clinical people may only check emails once or twice a week.

I don’t like that attitude that as we’re nhs we need to pull together, suck it up, work annual leave and be grateful. We’re on our knees, exhausted, short staffed, under funded and delivering a very ambitious vaccination programme in winter with two epidemics. Limited support, limited mental health support and no real pay recognition.

You are a human being who needs annual leave to recover. Yes, if there’s an emergency and gold Command request leave be cancelled then fine. But not if it’s just poor leadership!!! Enough already

Who said I want to be a band 8? Regardless, I don’t need to be a martyr to get a promotion, I work in a very niche area and would have no issue finding another job.

Well then I suggest you do!

@MissM2912

OP is getting annual leave- just might not be a full fortnight. And she isn’t working front line on a covid ward- it is an outpatients clinic.

Was this in response to me? What's your point? Outpatient clinics are still work, and I think you'll find lots of AHP/non 'front-line' staff were redeployed to covid wards at the peak anyway. It may happen again.

@MissM2912

OP is getting annual leave- just might not be a full fortnight. And she isn’t working front line on a covid ward- it is an outpatients clinic.

I’ve not got a fortnight of leave it’s ten day only three of which are actual annual leave, my oncall is front line dealing with covid patients in life or death emergencies, I don’t only work in outpatients, the on-calls I have no issue with because regardless of how you are trying to paint me I’m not heartless enough to leave patients to die so I can enjoy my Christmas. It’s being asked to come in during my annual leave last minute to run non essential outpatient clinics as a first resort to low staffing that I have an issue with.

@MissM2912

Well then I suggest you do!

No thanks

I don't work for the NHS, but I think you deserve your annual leave and would say YANBU to switch your phone off and enjoy it.
I certainly wouldn't want someone providing my care to be stressed, tired and burnt out because they don't get proper annual leave and are expected to always be either working, or poised to come in.

I feel your pain. Been plenty of times work has contacted or tried to contact me while on annual leave. There is only 3 night senior carers (me included) If 1 of us is on annual leave and another goes of sick, only leaves 1 other. Last time they called I ignored the phone, then I had messages on messenger then another phone call. I ended up doing a sleep in on double time, then ended up helping the 2 carers.

We are short staffed on days too, I would hate to see the agency bill. Can't get the staff and even agency are short staffed.

@MissM2912 it’s workers like you who contribute to the problem of the NHS retention crisis. It’s not just a few weeks and we all need to pull together. This has been going on nearly 2 years. Staff are exhausted and burned out and need a break when they have booked one.

If you think all NHS workers should work to their bone and forego everything in their personal life for very little gain themselves, then you mustn’t be a very nice person. Everybody deserves a break and OP has every right to enjoy her annual leave uninterrupted. I say this as a lifelong NHS worker who is married to a clinician so I know first hand how hard staff have worked the past 2 years

Are you a therapist of some sort?

So this is a preventable situation and she is not following procedure? I would not answer the phone. So short-sighted of your manager to try to cancel annual leave in this situation. I don't know how she thinks she's going to manage when you're off sick for exhaustion/burn-out.

[quote Fretfulmum]@NeverDropYourMoonCup but how is that OP’s problem? That is an issue for the NHS to sort. Individuals shouldn’t have to bear the brunt of being emotionally guilted into working non stop without a break in the year.
If you’re so concerned that patients won’t get appointments, why don’t you volunteer over Christmas and help manage the backlog you speak of?[/quote]
Whilst I used to work all Christmas and new year because we ran clinics every day except Christmas Day, Boxing Day and New Year, this year - where I've been in school pretty much all the time, including all but two weeks following treatment where I was advised to not leave the house - I've got three in person appointments so that they can try and work out whether I actually fractured my hip during lockdown or just ruptured a tendon/labral tear, do further bloods (that my GP can't order because they have no connection with the out of area specialist clinic prescribing biologics, so the results wouldn't go to the hospital any more than the bloods would reach a lab capable of performing them in the first place) so I can continue treatment and have an intraarticular steroid injection assisted by imaging.

I'm hoping I don't get to the hospital each time to find that nobody's turned up for work, as I've been waiting for the scan since about May 2020 and having to take an extended period of sick leave from school wouldn't exactly help matters; especially as I'm one of only two remaining qualified first aiders on site who have been trained to administer insulin, AAIs, handle trach tubes or operate the defib. Not having qualified first aid cover is another reason why schools have to close, as telling a parent 'well, they might have lived, but our first aider wasn't at work because she can't walk at the moment' doesn't help - and to tell the parents of children with medical conditions that they have to stay at home would be an illegal exclusion and discriminatory.

So nice though it would be to go back on bank this year, I'm afraid I don't actually have the capacity to do so.

The attitude of people in this thread is shocking. Apparently if you work for the NHS, you should be available whenever for clinics, otherwise you're not a caring person and shouldn't have your job. You should drop everything whenever, for patients, you're not allowed a life of your own.

@NeverDropYourMoonCup I’m sorry about your health problems. But they are not for OP to individually sacrifice her personal life for. You have an issue with the NHS system. I suggest you write to your hospital or MP but suggesting NHS staff shouldn’t have time off is very unreasonable and cruel

Our Trust has been encouraging staff to take their annual leave so far, knowing that it is likely we are going to be in a situation where people's leave will be cancelled.

However, in most acute clinical areas I have worked

• staff (including band 7) are not permitted to take annual leave over these 2 weeks
• cancelling leave would not be at the level of your immediate manager (presumably matron?) but at directorate level or higher

There is also the issue that if things get much worse (not yet in our region, but London/SE it seems pretty close) there is going to be widespread cancellation of leave due to major incident business continuity requirements. We are already looking at redeployments.

Can you discuss the leave issue with your manager, and then directorate management?

At band 7 you will have an awareness of what is needed to keep your service running, and some responsibility with your colleagues for doing that.

[quote Fretfulmum]@NeverDropYourMoonCup I’m sorry about your health problems. But they are not for OP to individually sacrifice her personal life for. You have an issue with the NHS system. I suggest you write to your hospital or MP but suggesting NHS staff shouldn’t have time off is very unreasonable and cruel[/quote]
I didn't say they shouldn't have time off. I gave reasons why they might not be inconsequential appointments to the patients as the OP pretty much describes them as vanity visits and how the knock on of the clinics being cancelled could be something that causes further issues.

I then responded to the post suggesting that I worked for the NHS. Which I've done in the past. But I work in schools now, and there are consequences to cancelling appointments that might not be immediately apparent to somebody who hasn't worked in both sectors.

I hope that my appointments still go ahead because there are those potential consequences. If they get cancelled because of covid, it can't be helped - but it would be a pain for more than just me if they are.

It would be a shame if they were cancelled on the day or took hours for operational reasons - which usually means somebody hasn't turned up. And a bit annoying at sixty quid a pop in travel costs (last intraarticular injection left me unable to walk unaided for 24 hours, so I needed DP to help me and to get a cab, never mind the medical advice to not be walking and standing around for two hours to get public transport home afterwards).

I suspect the OP would be somewhat annoyed if she couldn't work because there wasn't enough staff to look after her child, too.

I think you are either on leave or you are on call - it's not unreasonable to want to know in advance. Can you not speak to your manager directly? If she's short staffed then she needs to organise something now. And if you are doing extra days on call make sure you are being paid!

Annual leave can be cancelled in exceptional circumstances and the more senior you are the more you are expected to cover. I've never worked anywhere where we've been allowed to book leave over Christmas and NY. I'm off this year for the first time since maternity leave 6 years ago because I'm doing a specialist practice course so technically a student - it's great!

I do think some people seem to think that being a healthcare professional has to involve being a self-sacrificing martyr. We are all doing a job with an employment contract, for which we get paid, and are entitled to annual leave and down time away from work. Practically every single nurse in the NHS will have covered for colleagues,come in on days off, worked additional hours, been redeployed to a different work area - sometimes with no warning and expected to get on with it. It is unsustainable and it is why people burn out and leave.

Surely your union would be people to contact about this not MN!

God the attitudes of some posters on this post are horrendous. One minute people are clapping on their doorsteps in thanks of NHS staff and the next they're telling us to suck it up and work like dogs without our entitled AL so that individuals can have a non urgent clinic appointment that they could have had remotely!

OP has stated multiple times that their are other solutions management could put in place that would be fine but her manager is choosing not to bother. That sounds like terrible management to me. Cancelling AL when it's not an absolute necessity is a sure fire way to damage your relationship with your staff and eliminate any chance of goodwill from them in the future. I'm band 2 and if my manager did this to me I would always remember it and would never do them a favour again. Good staff are hard to find and a good manager knows that and will do their best to think of the long term and the impact of losing staff loyalty.

The fact that your manager will be off work enjoying her Christmas makes me so angry for you, OP. I would send an email to let her know you really need a break and that her plan doesn't work for you. Maybe she will rethink? Or could you say you're going away to stay with family? If all else fails I would then contact your union. It's been hard to get AL since the pandemic started and it doesn't look like that's going to be changing anytime soon and you need a break at some point.

Honestly with stuff like this going on it's no wonder the NHS find it difficult to retain staff and that so many are off with stress.

I’m a junior doctor (currently not at work as awaiting PCR result for covid contact) but I’m amazed you have 10 days in a row off over Christmas. I have never been allowed to take annual leave to be off between Christmas and new year. Most places have a rule of no annual leave at this time don’t they as they are crazy busy trying to catch up from the Christmas backlog of the bank holidays in the few days before the new year one? So I’m just suprised this was agreed, I’ve had to really beg to get a half days AL on the 31/12 but I have no one else to care for DD that day and said I needed the leave or she was coming to work with me! Tbh I’d be really annoyed if a colleague had been allowed to take the whole period off when most of us are not allowed any leave.

It’s in the junior doctors contract we can be requested to work for short term sickness cover (max 48hrs)so I wouldn’t be able to turn my phone off. You don’t have to work if it’s not safe or you can’t find care for dependants etx. Before I had dd as an excuse I would always start big days like family weddings with a Bellini so I could truly say I was not fit to work - most people just lie tho. Does your contract not say something like that?

Husband is a new nhs consultant and his contract says similar but for a longer duration of cover. Due to covid he’s expecting to be required to work some days he had had down as off days (for working BH) and so we are not making any commitments - but this is just the way working for the nhs is