TW. Could Grandad harm or abuse my children?

[Neveratruerword]

My FIL, this summer, on four separate occasions has tried to take my sons for a bath (in the middle of the afternoon) without me or my husband around.

We tend to stay a few nights each time we visit, as we live a considerable distance from them and go to visit for a night or two.

The first time, he managed to get the children (age 7&5) into the bath without us knowing (husband napping downstairs and me unpacking bags). What got me concerned was that he said the children had asked for a bath in the middle of the afternoon whereas later on my mother in law mentioned that it had all been Grandad's idea. So either there was a misunderstanding or Grandad was not telling the truth.

At this point, I had concerns:

1. He has never been a hands on grandad in terms of childcare or hygiene. So why this sudden desire, now the boys are 7 & 5?

1. There is no way my sons would have asked for a bath at 3pm in the afternoon. This idea of an 'activity' has to have come from him. Why not something more normal like walking to the park or a kick about with a ball in the garden?

1. The discrepancies between what my MIL and FIL said had happened.

Bit worrying really but I didn't bother too much at this point.

Anyway, as we had been kept apart all last Christmas until the April due to Covid, we tried to make up for it and made another three trips up to see them between May and August. Each time, Grandad has tried to bath the kids in the afternoon. Myself and husband have shut it down every time with a clear "No thank you Grandad".

In fact, on one of the evenings when we were bathing them ourselves (at the normal time!!) our oldest son stated he wanted privacy so we told Grandad that and didn't allow him in, respecting our sons wishes. FWIW neither of our sons have disclosed anything about Grandad.

I don't know why but he still kept trying to do this ridiculous bathing in the afternoon thing despite us very clearly and firmly (no aggression) shutting it down EVERY time. In my eyes it just isn't appropriate, particularly as he has not been "hands on" in any respect of their lives so far.

It made me very upset to be honest and my husband and I have had to have few very upsetting conversations about his father's intentions.

It also made me aware of how Grandad stays up very late at night, much later than anyone else and on his way to bed he will walk in to the children's room and (I think) watch them. I was aware he did this and before thought he was just being sweet and enjoyed seeing the sleeping children. But now, I am horrified and it has led to me staying awake all night with the bedroom door open, waiting for him to go to bed and being vigilant about him entering the kids room. The fear and lack of sleep felt upsetting. Not going to be able to sleep there again unless I sleep in with the kids.

In addition, recently he has jumped at the chance to accompany either child to do a wee in the bushes (if we have been out and about in the woods without a toilet nearby). Once again, I shut this down every time and felt my son was relieved that I did so.

Finally, I have noticed he will sit on the sofa with the children, all three of them covered up with a blanket. I never gave it ANY thought before all this new, odd behaviour. But now, I am horrified by it and have told my husband we cannot allow it.

In mind I just cannot believe that my FIL could harm his grandsons. On the other hand, these recent behaviours have REALLY upset me and made me concerned. The whole thing has sickened me to be honesg. My instinct is to protect my children at all costs.

Back in August I rang the NSPCC for advice and they validated my concerns and told me (amongst other things-they were wonderfully supportive) to continue being vigilant, to reduce or stop contact if needed and to report to police if any clear abuse happened.

My husband and I have not seen his family since then. Like I said, it has meant some horribly difficult conversations for us and a good few tears.

As we have the distance between us, we have used that as a reason not to meet up through the last school term. Now it is Christmas, we will be stopping with other relatives close by and only doing short ish day trips to see the in laws. I honestly could not cope with an overnight trip at the moment. We hope that shorter trips without the need for any bathtimes at all will put a stop to this behaviour.

I haven't always got along that well with my in laws but the issues we have had in the past have been so trivial and have never stopped us seeing them.

Now that my FIL behaviour has led us to feel it is untoward and potentially concerning, I feel I have been led into a very disturbing place where I have to examine his intentions and consider whether or not he could abuse my children. It feels very dark anf sinister.

We have wondered if the odd behaviour could be an early onset dementia (not something we have brought up with the remainder of the family) or if he really is just clueless as to what is and isn't appropriate behaviour?

I'm not really asking AIBU. I don't feel, when it comes to my children's safety, that IABU at all. I also am not prematurely cutting off the in laws and children's relationship based on a hunch and scant evidence of child abuse.

I am however putting in stronger boundaries re.visits to their home and my husband and I have vowed to each other that we will not leave the children alone with Grandad at all. If anything untoward happens we will be leaving immediately. I am lucky my husband (although sad) is supporting me 100% in this.

I have the strongest feeling that I have to protect my children here and that you cannot rewind in real life so I have to prevent the worst happening. I am dreading the visits but am so, so grateful to my husband for arranging day visits only. Thr overnights and worry would destroy me.

I hope beyond hope that I am wrong and that Grandad poses no threat at all. However, I'm not sure how/if I am ever going to find out the "truth" and will likely spend the rest of their childhood and teen years being cautious etc.

Any advice or perspectives welcome. Please be kind.

CS Jobseeker

You are misrepresenting what I said. She isn't allowing them near her kids in the bathroom or anywhere else. Where did I say she has to accept that?

What I did say is that in a few years time the avenues he has currently used to possibly attempt to groom her kids for future abuse will be shut off, so she doesn't have to feel like this is a permanent state of affairs, as she has mentioned above.

Of course the children aren't collateral damage.

Outside of all the red flags and worries, your child asked for privacy.

There is a reason for this.

[quote Neveratruerword]@KittyBurrito thank you for understanding. I am sorry you find yourself the same way.

@makinglemonadefromlemons

Thank you too. Yes we have referred to the what's in your pants from NSPCC a number of times. My eldest was thankfully introduced to it in reception class by his school xxx[/quote]
So the responsibility is on your son to see what’s happening - “thankfully”. WTF.

I know you said your H is supportive BUT in my family I think if that had happened, my H would be talking to his father and saying 'WTF is going on?'

Your husband does sound a bit passive. I'm not advocating violence, of course not, but I can imagine some sons telling their dad they would 'punch their lights out' if they ever got near their sons in a sexual way.

Are you over thinking this is in a very 'middle class way' when some plain speaking is needed?

Have you ever watched Spooks Op?

There is a conversation with one of the unreasonably good looking agents (Adam maybe???) and a terrorist where the terrorist says “You have to be lucky every time - I just have to be lucky once.”

I think the problem you have is if FIL is determined to abuse your sons - and it very much sounds like he is - it only takes once to ruin their lives. All it takes is one of your sons to go and throw up everywhere - you both to go and deal with it and your other son is alone with grandad. Or you can agree in advance that each of you will stick with one child and nothing would lead to you taking your eyes off “your” child but what if one of you feels sick? Or just needs a wee?

I don’t think that you can do this long term - you’d basically be sending yourselves -and your sons - into a war zone three times a year - the damage to your mental health would be enormous.

@AnkleDeep

There is no immediate danger because you and your DH are on the same page.

You have decided that FiL is never to be allowed alone with your DCs and that one of you will always be there.

You are already taking measures to not allow any dodgy behaviour so there is no need to panic.

You are dealing with this very well, OP, and keeping your boys safe.

What are you minimising this?

What are your credentials to tell the OP not to panic when she has seen, felted and sensed multiple issues?

How are you able to claim these little boys are not in immediate danger when the NSPCC say otherwise?

What do you mean by “dodgy behaviour” - did you mean to say grooming or child sexual abuse?

@FrancescaContini

No it's on me as a mother. I am doing everything in my power to protect them

I say "thankfully" because the NSPCC and his school introduced this age appropriate and helpful way in to discussing a very sad and difficult topic.

I won't be engaging with you any longer.

The NSPCC and I had both concluded my children are NOT in any immediate danger, nor have they been since August.

do your husbands sibs have children?

The difficulty is that by continuing to see him ( however supervised the setting is) the message you are sending your children is that this is a person you care about and would want to please. Grooming takes advantage of that as Children want to please the adults in their lives and certainly don't want to upset a person the family cares about.

Never give a suspected paedophile the benefit of the doubt. Ask the boys in a safe and age appropriate way how they felt with the baths, peeing etc. Keep a dialogue going, and aim to keep cool, calm and collected.

OP why can't your husband have a serious conversation with his father on this?

All he needs do is say 'Look dad, there are things we need to talk about. I've noticed....XYZ...when we are here. We aren't happy about it and from where we are it looks like grooming behaviour (or words to that effect) and I want you to know what we are seeing.'

As you describe them as a family who doesn't talk much about stuff, I reckon your FIL is playing on that and won't expect for a moment that he is going to be confronted about his behaviour.

Maybe it's time for some plain speaking?

[quote Neveratruerword]@FrancescaContini

No it's on me as a mother. I am doing everything in my power to protect them

I say "thankfully" because the NSPCC and his school introduced this age appropriate and helpful way in to discussing a very sad and difficult topic.

I won't be engaging with you any longer.[/quote]
Okay. No problem. You’re not listening to the posters on this thread who have been subject to sexual abuse by close family members.

Maybe now you know why the cousins live abroad op...

You are right to cut contact with this man. Yes the conversations and disruption will be difficult but you know pretty much what is happening, and by taking the children back, you are in a way telling them that you are condoning what he does (I know you are not) if MIL asks why , tell her. It’s an awful situation but better now than when more damage and abuse has happened.

Maybe he has already abused them in the bath/under the blanket/in the bushes?

I was sexually harassed and terrified by a man when I was a little older than your eldest, but I didn't have the vocabulary to tell my parents. I also felt too awkward to try to put into words what happened.

I now have adult children, and a number of times when they have been reminiscing I've been taken aback over things they didn't tell us at the time (nothing sinister, believing odd things they saw in a children's TV programme, for example).

For this reason, I would completely stop contact. I'm not trying to scare you, but you simply can't know for sure if anything has already happened.

OMG, trust your instincts, OP. Absolutely trust your instincts.

I would absolutely not be letting my kids be unsupervised with this person at any time.

Op I know I'm throwing a curve ball into the discussion by asking this as you haven't mentioned this...but if in the future you and your dh separated or divorced, would you trust your dh to not visit them?

Why not confront him?

Just 'not turning up any more' is to me a rather passive way of dealing with this.

Fine, don't visit them. But you need to say why.

I keep coming back to the feeling that your husband is being a bit of a wimp. He needs to talk to his father and not allow him to think his behaviour's gone unnoticed.

I also am not prematurely cutting off the in laws and children's relationship based on a hunch and scant evidence of child abuse.

Waiting for solid evidence means waiting for your children to tell you they have been fondled or raped by GD. You have had your views validated by the NSPCC, what else are you waiting to happen before you stop calling it a “hunch”?

You are the mother, your first priority is to protect your children not the feelings of the inlaws. If you are so worried about severing links stop joining your husband on trips to visit his parents, they can see the kids when you bump with them in other family occasions.

And FGS, stop staying there over night. If you don’t have the money to pay a hotel, let the husband go and stay home with the children.

I can see myself flying off the handle if my anxiety or stress is high and he tries one more thing.

It is your and your DH’s responsibility to ensure that he never has an opportunity to “try one more thing”. That means never visiting.

It’s really worrying that you thank Nduja for “seeing the bigger picture”. There is no bigger picture that should impact your actions. Familial tensions, however upsetting, don’t get to determine anything when the risk is this clear.

Your gut is telling you something here. Trust it.

I had a similar uncomfortable feeling about my mum's partner. There was just something off about him. I couldn't put my finger on it for years. He has no contact with his own adult daughters, but it wasn't just that (which is potentially odd enough), there was just something uncomfortable. There was a time when they wanted to watch a film with my oldest when she was around 3/4 and he kept asking her to sit on his lap to watch it. It sent a chill through me. I made excuses and we left.

I found out since through my own research and hiring a PI that he was convicted of sexually abusing his own daughters years ago. My mum is okay with it and said she doesn't think he would abuse mine and keeps an eye on him. I can't live like that. We're NC with both of them now.

If I hadn't listened to what my gut was telling me, I may never have found out. Even when I confronted them with the court records, they denied it. It's a horrible situation to be in and my dc have lost a grandparent as a result, but I know they will grow up knowing I kept them safe and put their needs first.

@Neveratruerword The impression that we get is that your H's family is one where emotions are never aired. Everyone is repressed emotionally.

By changing your visiting behaviour, you are surely just going to perpetuate that cycle of 'head in the sand.'

You cannot let this man (grandad) off the hook like this!
If it's not your sons, it will be others. He may already have a history of this, unknown to you.

You can walk away from it, for sure. But at the same time he needs to know what you have seen.