TW. Could Grandad harm or abuse my children?

[Neveratruerword]

My FIL, this summer, on four separate occasions has tried to take my sons for a bath (in the middle of the afternoon) without me or my husband around.

We tend to stay a few nights each time we visit, as we live a considerable distance from them and go to visit for a night or two.

The first time, he managed to get the children (age 7&5) into the bath without us knowing (husband napping downstairs and me unpacking bags). What got me concerned was that he said the children had asked for a bath in the middle of the afternoon whereas later on my mother in law mentioned that it had all been Grandad's idea. So either there was a misunderstanding or Grandad was not telling the truth.

At this point, I had concerns:

1. He has never been a hands on grandad in terms of childcare or hygiene. So why this sudden desire, now the boys are 7 & 5?

1. There is no way my sons would have asked for a bath at 3pm in the afternoon. This idea of an 'activity' has to have come from him. Why not something more normal like walking to the park or a kick about with a ball in the garden?

1. The discrepancies between what my MIL and FIL said had happened.

Bit worrying really but I didn't bother too much at this point.

Anyway, as we had been kept apart all last Christmas until the April due to Covid, we tried to make up for it and made another three trips up to see them between May and August. Each time, Grandad has tried to bath the kids in the afternoon. Myself and husband have shut it down every time with a clear "No thank you Grandad".

In fact, on one of the evenings when we were bathing them ourselves (at the normal time!!) our oldest son stated he wanted privacy so we told Grandad that and didn't allow him in, respecting our sons wishes. FWIW neither of our sons have disclosed anything about Grandad.

I don't know why but he still kept trying to do this ridiculous bathing in the afternoon thing despite us very clearly and firmly (no aggression) shutting it down EVERY time. In my eyes it just isn't appropriate, particularly as he has not been "hands on" in any respect of their lives so far.

It made me very upset to be honest and my husband and I have had to have few very upsetting conversations about his father's intentions.

It also made me aware of how Grandad stays up very late at night, much later than anyone else and on his way to bed he will walk in to the children's room and (I think) watch them. I was aware he did this and before thought he was just being sweet and enjoyed seeing the sleeping children. But now, I am horrified and it has led to me staying awake all night with the bedroom door open, waiting for him to go to bed and being vigilant about him entering the kids room. The fear and lack of sleep felt upsetting. Not going to be able to sleep there again unless I sleep in with the kids.

In addition, recently he has jumped at the chance to accompany either child to do a wee in the bushes (if we have been out and about in the woods without a toilet nearby). Once again, I shut this down every time and felt my son was relieved that I did so.

Finally, I have noticed he will sit on the sofa with the children, all three of them covered up with a blanket. I never gave it ANY thought before all this new, odd behaviour. But now, I am horrified by it and have told my husband we cannot allow it.

In mind I just cannot believe that my FIL could harm his grandsons. On the other hand, these recent behaviours have REALLY upset me and made me concerned. The whole thing has sickened me to be honesg. My instinct is to protect my children at all costs.

Back in August I rang the NSPCC for advice and they validated my concerns and told me (amongst other things-they were wonderfully supportive) to continue being vigilant, to reduce or stop contact if needed and to report to police if any clear abuse happened.

My husband and I have not seen his family since then. Like I said, it has meant some horribly difficult conversations for us and a good few tears.

As we have the distance between us, we have used that as a reason not to meet up through the last school term. Now it is Christmas, we will be stopping with other relatives close by and only doing short ish day trips to see the in laws. I honestly could not cope with an overnight trip at the moment. We hope that shorter trips without the need for any bathtimes at all will put a stop to this behaviour.

I haven't always got along that well with my in laws but the issues we have had in the past have been so trivial and have never stopped us seeing them.

Now that my FIL behaviour has led us to feel it is untoward and potentially concerning, I feel I have been led into a very disturbing place where I have to examine his intentions and consider whether or not he could abuse my children. It feels very dark anf sinister.

We have wondered if the odd behaviour could be an early onset dementia (not something we have brought up with the remainder of the family) or if he really is just clueless as to what is and isn't appropriate behaviour?

I'm not really asking AIBU. I don't feel, when it comes to my children's safety, that IABU at all. I also am not prematurely cutting off the in laws and children's relationship based on a hunch and scant evidence of child abuse.

I am however putting in stronger boundaries re.visits to their home and my husband and I have vowed to each other that we will not leave the children alone with Grandad at all. If anything untoward happens we will be leaving immediately. I am lucky my husband (although sad) is supporting me 100% in this.

I have the strongest feeling that I have to protect my children here and that you cannot rewind in real life so I have to prevent the worst happening. I am dreading the visits but am so, so grateful to my husband for arranging day visits only. Thr overnights and worry would destroy me.

I hope beyond hope that I am wrong and that Grandad poses no threat at all. However, I'm not sure how/if I am ever going to find out the "truth" and will likely spend the rest of their childhood and teen years being cautious etc.

Any advice or perspectives welcome. Please be kind.

@NdujaWannaDance - what’s your story?

Your repeated posts are total outliers on this thread -
almost compulsive and apologetic in tone. Are you aware of that?

Have you read the posts on this thread from people who work with paedophiles and the people who were repeatedly groomed and abused in childhood in front of their parents by a relative?

How does their testimony and opinion stack up with your personal experience? Does their insight trigger you some how?

[quote Neveratruerword]@MsInsomniac no boys the same age. An older male cousin who has had little contact due to living abroad.

You are right. I told my husband that if this behaviour was any other man we would have run a million miles by now.

Because it is his father, it ruins so many lives if we were to cut all contact. Sibling relationships would break down. His relationship with his mother.

We have wondered whether to discuss with husbands siblings but we believe they would be incredulous and think we ere mad and even vindictive.[/quote]
I think it may be sensible to chat to your husband’s siblings.

They may think you mad - but they may too have seen signs or have had concerns. Do they have any children? Are they likely too?

How old is tour FIL? Could this be dementia related?

Two elderly men in my wifes family had Alzheimer's and lost their inhibitions.

You did right to contact the NSPCC.

What if the worst has already happened though OP, all your alarm bells are already ringing, you don't like him, you don't trust him and you are still going to take your kids to spend time with him. Invite MIL to visit alone, meet her elsewhere with the kids, but even then if something has already happened it is teaching your kids that its acceptable and they potentially have to go back for more. I really feel for you. Unless you're able.to ha e a Frank conversation with MIL about what has happened so far and sure raise it as is he ok medically voice of concern, I don't think you should risk your kids like this, who benefits, not them, not you.

This is just awful to read... sounds like he's hiding in plain sight op. You sound like a good mum who is very aware but I think cutting contact is the best thing you could do. I can only imagine the level of anxiety and exhaustion you'll experience during visits when you'll be on high alert and watching his every move and being unable to turn your back for a second.

Trust your instincts and protect your boys.

It sounds like the family (MIL) is the type to want to ignore/refuse to address any concerns, so they will not do anything to protect your kids. This is the type of environment where dodgy behaviour can thrive because the perpetrators know that they won't be challenged.

Personally if your sons have already shown discomfort in his presence I would cut all contact. I could not interact with someone like this and pretend that things are fine.

I would also be concerned if there were any other children in the family that could be targeted? If so maybe have a word with their parents. Better safe than sorry...

Sending sympathy. Having suspicions about a close family member is so profoundly disturbing, it is hard to explain to anyone who hasn't been through it. (In our case, it's my father who has inappropriate boundaries). Applause to the OP and her DH for reaching out for specialist advice, and working together as a team to put their sons first. There will always be the fear that you were being terribly unfair/imagining things. The not knowing can make you feel sick to your stomach - it's a horribly churny feeling. The level of distress is hard to describe. And mostly, you will never know if you were right or not - at least, that's my situation. But I do think it to best to be alert to that 'skin crawling' feeling. It's likely you are picking up on a whole host of tiny signals (as well as the bigger red flags you describe here) which your conscious mind doesn't quite know how to articulate.

Please continue to trust your instincts & the instincts of your boys , who are uncomfortable with grandad.
I understand how difficult it is to cut contact & think you are being really wise not staying with them & ensuring the boys are NEVER alone or in a vulnerable position.
Did NSPCC point you towards their Pants teaching? That no one touches where pants/underwear go - excellent resources that won't scare j too our boys.
I've always taught my children that it's their body they have the right to say no to any physical contact ie hugs, kisses etc from anyone. I was forced to give kisses / cuddles, be polite to adults which led to a very compromising event & I believe abuse, although I haven't any real recollection of it, just snippets of memories I shouldn't have - the inside of the man's house, I remember the grooming and following issues I've had would fit, if I'd been taught I could say no & to be honest had my parents been more attentive, it never would of happened! (Another red flag was the man's house was next to the playground, he was an injured VET, so would often use that to get support from kids to do odd jobs.)

You are amazing parents & I think the fact your husband was so open & in agreement with the concerns, he may have had more experience of his Dads behaviours, but doesn't remember, I sincerely hope not though!
Don't be afraid to cut contact the moment you feel he pushes the boundaries you set & I probably would tell him, without accusing at this point, the rules - the boys don't like people seeing th undressed, it's not appropriate to be under a blanket, my boys do not have to give hugs, kisses- it's their choice, etc.
Be strong, protect your kids, you are amazing!

What exactly is the benefit of continuing to see them? You and DH will be hypervigilent which the children will pick up on. They could very well question you when they are older as to why you continued to potentially put them in danger.

Your ILs will be aware of a change in behaviour and who is the cause of your concern. This is not condusive to building happy memories of time spent with grandparents. FiL has brought this on himself and MIL has knowingly or unknowingly supported him in this.

The genie is out of the bottle and you can't go back to the relationship you thought you had.

Well done for recognising and acting on this OP. I think the reason child abuse with never stop happening is because our brains initially reject the idea of a close family member being an abuser. Plenty brush it off, either because they think they're being paranoid or because they can't bear the responsibility of making the choice of nuking the family.

Abusers are prolific and compulsive which means he will be more hyper vigilant than you. It’s unanimous that there are huge red flags.

You only don’t know that he has not already abused them because you have not yet asked your little boys directly or they are unable verbalise anything that may have happened to them (through trauma) or are confused if it’s still at the grooming stage.

“Hoping” and giving him the benefit of the doubt is not good enough in this situation. His blatant actions are telling - if you consider him a “sleeping lion” and you walk in the cage with him when he chooses to pounce you will be no match for him.

Let your DH see him alone. Keep throwing bones with excuses about why the boys aren’t there. If it is dementia it will become more apparent in the next few years - and it will not have been wrong to keep your sons from being exposed to and impacted by any inappropriate sexual behaviour.

Other things that may or may not add to this family picture are knowing in advance that the MIL wouldn’t engage / in denial / would close down, that as a family they don’t open up and that one chooses to live abroad. On there own mean nothing but with what you have seen it looks like a family with secrets and silence.

@KittyBurrito thank you for understanding. I am sorry you find yourself the same way.

@makinglemonadefromlemons

Thank you too. Yes we have referred to the what's in your pants from NSPCC a number of times. My eldest was thankfully introduced to it in reception class by his school xxx

I'm sorry but your FIL is a paedophile. His grooming of your children is actually more obvious than the grooming that happened to me, and I did face terrifying attacks.

Something you need to be very aware of is not only are you aware that his behaviour is off, but also that your son has at two points you mention made it clear that he is uncomfortable.
He asked for privacy from his grandfather being there when he bathed.
He seemed relieved when his grandfather couldn't follow him into the bushes for a wee.

Make excuses to not go to PILS house, and if you do need to see them to keep the peace, you watch your boys like hawks- do not let them out of your sight at all.
You are aware that you will not have MILS support on this.

Personally I'd not want him anywhere near children and I'd be making every excuse under the sun to keep him at a distance.

If you are only going to see them 3 time a year you can control this situation and it will become less easy for him to get to them as they get older.

Ie in two years they will probably skip baths altogether in other people's houses.

They will also not want to sit under a blanket, or be followed to the toilet. The sleeping over you have already decided to stop and I think that's a good move.

Really you can't control him and I try instead to work around him unless you have evidence. Work on your kids, give them scenarios where they can tell someone to leave them alone.

If he can't groom them (and you) at this age to accept his intrusiveness it's going to be impossible for him in a few years time when your kids are bigger and that dynamic of him being there at bathtime etc hasn't been established.

This situation isn't permanent and your kids won't always be this vulnerable.

@ESGdance

Yes absolutely a family with secrets and silence. No doubt. Anything I go into would be outing.

I have invoked Sarah's Law.

That's a massive massive red flag. I'd not let your sons anywhere near your FIL his behavior is definitely not normal for any grandparent to do

OP I think this is a very brave post - your husband does need to tell his siblings about his dads behaviour to protect all the children.

There is no immediate danger because you and your DH are on the same page.

You have decided that FiL is never to be allowed alone with your DCs and that one of you will always be there.

You are already taking measures to not allow any dodgy behaviour so there is no need to panic.

You are dealing with this very well, OP, and keeping your boys safe.

OP if you do talk to your husband's siblings, they may well tell you more stuff. Equally, they may find talking about it so disturbing that they shut the whole conversation down and/or blame you. Just warning you - don't be surprised if you find yourself labelled a fantasist/sick/unloving etc. You may also find that siblings emphasise how idyllic their own childhood was, and ramp up efforts to make you a scapegoat. It's all really common and hurts like hell - so do it when you are feeling strong and be prepared for the backlash, so it doesn't blindside you. The family may split over this and if it does, you and your husband may well find yourselves cast out- but it's not your fault. That is, as you have said earlier, not insignificant. I still think it's probably the right thing to do.

made another three trips up to see them between May and August. Each time, Grandad has tried to bath the kids in the afternoon

There's just no way this is innocent, I'm sorry. It's not normal to bathe children in the middle of the afternoon unless they've got covered in muck.

To suggest it once might be a bit suspect, but to try this on four separate occasions is pretty much guaranteed to be sinister. Then add on the fact that your sons are acting uncomfortable. You need to keep them away from him.

@greenmarlin

If you are only going to see them 3 time a year you can control this situation and it will become less easy for him to get to them as they get older.

Ie in two years they will probably skip baths altogether in other people's houses.

They will also not want to sit under a blanket, or be followed to the toilet. The sleeping over you have already decided to stop and I think that's a good move.

Really you can't control him and I try instead to work around him unless you have evidence. Work on your kids, give them scenarios where they can tell someone to leave them alone.

If he can't groom them (and you) at this age to accept his intrusiveness it's going to be impossible for him in a few years time when your kids are bigger and that dynamic of him being there at bathtime etc hasn't been established.

This situation isn't permanent and your kids won't always be this vulnerable.

What the fuck - so in the meantime her sons are just collateral damage?

Until they are older they just have to accept their grandad trying to bathe them and touch them in ways they don't like?

I'm so sorry. Trust your instincts here. Your MIL either knows and is in denial or enabling, or she has decided to block it from her mind.

The boys are uncomfortable about all this. Trust their instincts too. No more overnight stays, unsupervised contact. Nip it in the bud.

xxx

I think that you have to take steps to control this situation BUT there are more people in this than only this man and your boys.

There are also your MIL and your H.

Cutting contact would mean that your husband would lose contact with his parents.

How does the feel about that?

It would also mean your MIL would never see her grandsons.

If that is the way you want to go, there needs to be an open conversation by your H with his mother. It's her choice if she stonewalls him and refuses to engage or believe what she hears. That doesn't mean it can't be said.

I'd also consider having that conversation with BOTH of his parents- letting his F know what you have seen.

Why should his father 'get away with it' if that's what is going on?
IMO he needs to be called out on his behaviour.

That may well be the end of your relationship with them, but is that any worse than drifting away and having to make excuses for years over why you hardly see them?

Absolutely not.

He could and will abuse your children given thee chance. You're not there 24/7. He can sneak into the bedroom, catch your sons alone going up the stairs, or even molest them in the same room as you.

I have a friend who was abused by her grandfather as a child and she still has panic attacks, PTSD and intimacy issues 15+ years later.

Don't wait for your sons to be irreparably traumatised before cutting contact, because that's what will happen. Why wait for any further behaviour?

You don't wait until you're burgled to start locking your front door.