TW. Could Grandad harm or abuse my children?

[Neveratruerword]

My FIL, this summer, on four separate occasions has tried to take my sons for a bath (in the middle of the afternoon) without me or my husband around.

We tend to stay a few nights each time we visit, as we live a considerable distance from them and go to visit for a night or two.

The first time, he managed to get the children (age 7&5) into the bath without us knowing (husband napping downstairs and me unpacking bags). What got me concerned was that he said the children had asked for a bath in the middle of the afternoon whereas later on my mother in law mentioned that it had all been Grandad's idea. So either there was a misunderstanding or Grandad was not telling the truth.

At this point, I had concerns:

1. He has never been a hands on grandad in terms of childcare or hygiene. So why this sudden desire, now the boys are 7 & 5?

1. There is no way my sons would have asked for a bath at 3pm in the afternoon. This idea of an 'activity' has to have come from him. Why not something more normal like walking to the park or a kick about with a ball in the garden?

1. The discrepancies between what my MIL and FIL said had happened.

Bit worrying really but I didn't bother too much at this point.

Anyway, as we had been kept apart all last Christmas until the April due to Covid, we tried to make up for it and made another three trips up to see them between May and August. Each time, Grandad has tried to bath the kids in the afternoon. Myself and husband have shut it down every time with a clear "No thank you Grandad".

In fact, on one of the evenings when we were bathing them ourselves (at the normal time!!) our oldest son stated he wanted privacy so we told Grandad that and didn't allow him in, respecting our sons wishes. FWIW neither of our sons have disclosed anything about Grandad.

I don't know why but he still kept trying to do this ridiculous bathing in the afternoon thing despite us very clearly and firmly (no aggression) shutting it down EVERY time. In my eyes it just isn't appropriate, particularly as he has not been "hands on" in any respect of their lives so far.

It made me very upset to be honest and my husband and I have had to have few very upsetting conversations about his father's intentions.

It also made me aware of how Grandad stays up very late at night, much later than anyone else and on his way to bed he will walk in to the children's room and (I think) watch them. I was aware he did this and before thought he was just being sweet and enjoyed seeing the sleeping children. But now, I am horrified and it has led to me staying awake all night with the bedroom door open, waiting for him to go to bed and being vigilant about him entering the kids room. The fear and lack of sleep felt upsetting. Not going to be able to sleep there again unless I sleep in with the kids.

In addition, recently he has jumped at the chance to accompany either child to do a wee in the bushes (if we have been out and about in the woods without a toilet nearby). Once again, I shut this down every time and felt my son was relieved that I did so.

Finally, I have noticed he will sit on the sofa with the children, all three of them covered up with a blanket. I never gave it ANY thought before all this new, odd behaviour. But now, I am horrified by it and have told my husband we cannot allow it.

In mind I just cannot believe that my FIL could harm his grandsons. On the other hand, these recent behaviours have REALLY upset me and made me concerned. The whole thing has sickened me to be honesg. My instinct is to protect my children at all costs.

Back in August I rang the NSPCC for advice and they validated my concerns and told me (amongst other things-they were wonderfully supportive) to continue being vigilant, to reduce or stop contact if needed and to report to police if any clear abuse happened.

My husband and I have not seen his family since then. Like I said, it has meant some horribly difficult conversations for us and a good few tears.

As we have the distance between us, we have used that as a reason not to meet up through the last school term. Now it is Christmas, we will be stopping with other relatives close by and only doing short ish day trips to see the in laws. I honestly could not cope with an overnight trip at the moment. We hope that shorter trips without the need for any bathtimes at all will put a stop to this behaviour.

I haven't always got along that well with my in laws but the issues we have had in the past have been so trivial and have never stopped us seeing them.

Now that my FIL behaviour has led us to feel it is untoward and potentially concerning, I feel I have been led into a very disturbing place where I have to examine his intentions and consider whether or not he could abuse my children. It feels very dark anf sinister.

We have wondered if the odd behaviour could be an early onset dementia (not something we have brought up with the remainder of the family) or if he really is just clueless as to what is and isn't appropriate behaviour?

I'm not really asking AIBU. I don't feel, when it comes to my children's safety, that IABU at all. I also am not prematurely cutting off the in laws and children's relationship based on a hunch and scant evidence of child abuse.

I am however putting in stronger boundaries re.visits to their home and my husband and I have vowed to each other that we will not leave the children alone with Grandad at all. If anything untoward happens we will be leaving immediately. I am lucky my husband (although sad) is supporting me 100% in this.

I have the strongest feeling that I have to protect my children here and that you cannot rewind in real life so I have to prevent the worst happening. I am dreading the visits but am so, so grateful to my husband for arranging day visits only. Thr overnights and worry would destroy me.

I hope beyond hope that I am wrong and that Grandad poses no threat at all. However, I'm not sure how/if I am ever going to find out the "truth" and will likely spend the rest of their childhood and teen years being cautious etc.

Any advice or perspectives welcome. Please be kind.

@girlmom21

If you read carefully, I have NEVER allowed him to take them to the toilet.

@stewpots

A very good point. Thank you.

We have a very similar issue. We have not cut contact, we see them occasionally for a weekend as we live far apart. We have agreed rules between us a couple-

• no overnight stays
• heavily supervised contact. So grandparent cannot take child away by themselves even out of sight 20 metres away.

Grandparents know and it has ripped the relationship apart but the compromise above is as far as we can go. Need to be able to look my children in the eyes and say I protected them. It does cost a lot in air bnb accommodation as we can’t stay with them.

[quote Neveratruerword]@girlmom21

If you read carefully, I have NEVER allowed him to take them to the toilet.[/quote]
No, you're right, sorry, I misread.

But this The moment another bath is suggested we are out of there. isn't true is it?
Because you've shut him down when he's asked but you've not told him how he's acting. He's done it FOUR times and you're still allowing contact. So why would you stop contact the next time?

OP come down heavily on the side of your DC. It is hard to take it that a grandparent or any other relative would do such a thing but they like the "danger" of doing these things in full view. When confronted they are likely to say it is all in your imagination I don't think this is your imagination at all. I think this is very dangerous. If you have to confront him do not let good manners get in the way of giving him your exact views on his conduct.
I think something happened to one of my relatives, the person I suspect is very manipulative. I wish I had done something, created a right scene. I would now. Safeguard your children first and foremost. To me the grandmother is an enabler so don't cut her any slack either.

@FiddlefigOnTheRoof

I am so sorry you are in the same situation. For those who think we are naive and not protecting our children, this morning I have:

A) shown the thread to my husband and he has read it all. He is obviously devastated but we are firmly resolved to protect our children.

B) I have invoked Sarah's Law.

@Neveratruerword

To those saying you are incredulous that we allow them to continue contact with grandparents with very close monitoring, and that us "waiting for one more incident" at which point we would stop contact is wrong, I would like to clarify.

The contact will be very minimal. We will be with the children at ALL times. When I say "if one more thing was to happen", I mean like him suggesting another bath. The moment another bath is suggested we are out of there.

I don't believe he has already harmed them physically. I could well be wrong but I don't believe he has.

I believe my child is NOT uncomfortable around him, I believe he is naturally at an age where asking for privacy is becoming something he is aware of and likes to do at times, both at home, in public loos when we accompany him and at grandparents houses.

I am probably going to get a pile on again and I did ask for kindness. This is a terrible thing to have to navigate as a parent.

To one poster above who has criticised me for not taking a harder line when the NSPCC "validated my concerns". Their advice was very similar to the more moderate responses I have received on here; to maintain contact with restriction, boundaries and vigilance.

You’ve asked for advice but you want “kindness” ie you want to stay stuck in denial and for others to validate your “supervised contact” approach.

How many more posters need to warn you about the red flags here?

On whose behalf would contact be maintained?

What exactly did you want from this post?

Put your kids first, FFS.

The trouble is, What actual firm evidence does Op have? People in this thread are talking about evidence as though it’s not their interpretation.
I agree boundaries are the issue for sure, as they were with his own son growing up. The nspcc said to be vigilant and that seems to be the sensible way forward. Cutting all contact and never seeing your MIL again seems a bit extreme.
I say this as someone who has witnessed paedophile abuse, and reported to the police myself when I was 13. So I’m VERY pro reporting.
I’m just thinking of the converse, if she’s got this very wrong and you’re then depriving grandparents of seeing their grand kids.
Unless there’s been a bit of solid info I’ve missed somewhere in the thread.

If I was you I would start staying at an air bnb nearby for visits. Just tell his mother that you now you hope to come more often (whether you do or not) you would like to have space as a married couple.

@Campfirewood

The trouble is, What actual firm evidence does Op have? People in this thread are talking about evidence as though it’s not their interpretation. I agree boundaries are the issue for sure, as they were with his own son growing up. The nspcc said to be vigilant and that seems to be the sensible way forward. Cutting all contact and never seeing your MIL again seems a bit extreme. I say this as someone who has witnessed paedophile abuse, and reported to the police myself when I was 13. So I’m VERY pro reporting. I’m just thinking of the converse, if she’s got this very wrong and you’re then depriving grandparents of seeing their grand kids. Unless there’s been a bit of solid info I’ve missed somewhere in the thread.

I'd rather take the risk of being wrong than the risk of being right.

If the grandfather wasn't acting inappropriately there'd be no concerns, but he is.

What exactly are you waiting for?

How many more chances do you give this grooming bastard, and at what cost?

I’m angry on your children’s behalf.

@girlmom21

Good question. I have known the man for over 20 years. I don't particularly like him but before 2021 I NEVER thought him capable of such a thing.

The first bath was odd. The next few suggestions to bath were odd. By the 4th I was very uncomfortable but had explained it away up until that point. I hadn't immediately jumped to the "My FIL is a peadophile" conclusion because I had never believed it of him. Then I started to think of the other odd behaviours, put them together with the bathing incidents (note he ONLY bathed them once-all other times were suggestions). And at that point....I was HORRIFIED.

We haven't seen them since.

I think you are wise to confront this head on .I would just say it's a long journey and the boys get tired.let dh visit alone if he wants to.the baths .going in the bushes with them and the sofa sitting are all red flags. If they are upset so be it .better than being back here if the worst happened.

I’m sorry you are going through this OP

Definitely trust your gut and as difficult as is would stop all contact.

Could be early dementia (I worked in aged care so have seen some very odd behaviours) but you just don’t know. You are lucky to have a supportive husband and to be honest I think your MIL needs to be informed and pulled up on his behaviour to.

All the best.

My mum has looked after my twins children since they were a week old to help me. Of course she changed nappies but she has never once offered to bath or shower them. I never thought about this until you mentioned your issues. No one has ever asked me to shower or bath their kids and no one has ever offered to help with mine. At 7 my children were showering themselves. Its very odd behaviour on his part. The only thing is you mention possible dementia - did he shower your husband as a child? Dementia tends to be short term memory issues - its about not putting the 'pictures' of short term memory into your brain and therefore looking back at your past for 'pictures' instead. Its not conclusive but the dementia thing only makes sense to me if he bathed his children when he had a young family. If not, then sorry I would be even more suspicous.

It sounds like a really challenging situation and that you have been taking sensible steps to try and protect them. Although it's not easy and of course its DHs parent which complicates things, I would not have them anywhere near him, and that would be the hill I would die on.

@FrancescaContini

Yes, kindness. Because since August I have been suffering with the thoughts about this issue and it is horrendous. It is not something you can "clear the air" easily about, chat with friends about, easily access advice on what to do next. So yes, kindness. Not to validate ANYTHING.

We are not giving him a chance to do anything to harm our children. For example, if the blanket comes out on the sofa, I shall be assertively removing it, explaining why and taking my children home. My husband will be backing me up. This will enable the conversation regarding boundaries to be had, responses to be noted and then we shall have to make our decisions around cutting contact at that point.

Do I want to be in his company? No. Even photos of him repulse me. But at the end of the day, he has always been an odd man...he is my husband's father and if we are to cut contact...I believe firmly that doing it this way is better than just blocking and never contacting again.

At one point I thought about suggesting o my husband to tell the worries to his sister but to frame them as if it was MY father doing these things. (My father would no more bath my children than fly to the moon!)

Then tolisten to her responses, next to reveal to her that the man in question is not my father but her own.

I then realised this was very deceptive and trapping and I would never do that or encourage my husband to either.

Nevertheless thinking about it in this way was one of the things back in the summer that made me realise that this was odd behaviour.

@campfirewood

I don't think you have missed anything.

@glitterfarts

Tell your kids secrets are bad and no adult should ask them to keep secrets. Surprises are good and are like secrets but are happy things and only for a very short while eg mummy's Christmas present. But secrets should always be told to mum or dad.

An excellent perspective.

Sorry you have suffered.

Op I think your short term plans sound very sensible. I would though urge you to think long term about having conversations with your children about this. As they get older, they will ask why they don't stay with grandma and grandad any more. What will you say?

I think you're going to have to cut contact eventually otherwise you're going to have to tell them that you had good reason to think he is a paedophile but you carried on taking them to see him anyway.

That is not a conversation you want to have.

I really feel for you - what a hideous situation

I'm sorry if I seemed unkind or too strident OP. I recognise how difficult this issue is, how explosive within a family. It blew my family to pieces. I can see how much a team you and your DH are and how determined you are to protect your children. I think your plan to explain your concerns and outline boundaries to FIL are good. I would still urge you to limit any contact your children have with him to meetings outside the house, as you've said earlier in the thread. Don't let your guard down as time goes on.

@clymene

Yes this is one of my dilemmas. It's really hard and I guess by doing what I am doing (although some pp are angry with me-I understand why) I am not "pulling the trigger" just yet and am trying to get a bit more perspective on the situation.

@Neveratruerword

Your husband needs to talk to his siblings.

Sadly this scenario happened in my own family. I don’t want to go into too much detail but when one of the grandchildren disclosed abuse by her granddad it led to the disclosure of historic sexual abuse of the granddad’s own daughters which had been brushed under the carpet for years.

I don’t judge the older women here who never disclosed and put their own daughters and nieces in a position where abuse was possible. They were terrified and traumatised and also hoped that as their father aged he would have lost interest. Sadly they were wrong. However two generations of abuse and trauma occurred here because no one talked about what had happened.

In this case the male children of the grandfather were never abused so they had no idea what had happened to their sisters and so no idea they needed to protect their own daughters.

Your husband may well have been abused as a child and have buried it. Your MIL may be aware and be complicit for her own reasons of fear and shame. Your husband’s siblings may have been abused and never disclosed.

I was never abused by this family member but I NEVER felt comfortable around him. Even as a small child I knew he wasn’t right and always ensured my brother stayed with me at all times. You have to trust your instincts on this.

Seeing what the abuse has done to women in my own family has been so hard. Please, even if this is just a feeling and there’s no evidence, never let your children near this man again. All it takes is one moment of opportunity and your children could experience abuse that will haunt them for the rest of their life. I really wouldn’t take the risk.

I’m so sorry you’re going through this. I know it’s horrific but you have to trust yourself here and you need to cut all contact.

@Joystir59
Thank you. You haven't been hard on me. You had my children's safety and heart.

Yes. I am (best/worst possible scenario) sentenced to keeping my guard up for the next 12 to 13 years. Hence why we will never stop over there again, only visit in neutral territory and never ever leave them with the children...even for 5 seconds whilst my back is turned.

I am realistic to know that I cannot keep up this vigilance for more than an hour or two at a time. It will be tiring and emotionally exhausting.

The likelihood is that these visits will be maybe 3 times a year if that and it is also highly likely we cut contact. So yes, the long term outlook, one way or another, looks dire doesn't it.