TW. Could Grandad harm or abuse my children?

[Neveratruerword]

My FIL, this summer, on four separate occasions has tried to take my sons for a bath (in the middle of the afternoon) without me or my husband around.

We tend to stay a few nights each time we visit, as we live a considerable distance from them and go to visit for a night or two.

The first time, he managed to get the children (age 7&5) into the bath without us knowing (husband napping downstairs and me unpacking bags). What got me concerned was that he said the children had asked for a bath in the middle of the afternoon whereas later on my mother in law mentioned that it had all been Grandad's idea. So either there was a misunderstanding or Grandad was not telling the truth.

At this point, I had concerns:

1. He has never been a hands on grandad in terms of childcare or hygiene. So why this sudden desire, now the boys are 7 & 5?

1. There is no way my sons would have asked for a bath at 3pm in the afternoon. This idea of an 'activity' has to have come from him. Why not something more normal like walking to the park or a kick about with a ball in the garden?

1. The discrepancies between what my MIL and FIL said had happened.

Bit worrying really but I didn't bother too much at this point.

Anyway, as we had been kept apart all last Christmas until the April due to Covid, we tried to make up for it and made another three trips up to see them between May and August. Each time, Grandad has tried to bath the kids in the afternoon. Myself and husband have shut it down every time with a clear "No thank you Grandad".

In fact, on one of the evenings when we were bathing them ourselves (at the normal time!!) our oldest son stated he wanted privacy so we told Grandad that and didn't allow him in, respecting our sons wishes. FWIW neither of our sons have disclosed anything about Grandad.

I don't know why but he still kept trying to do this ridiculous bathing in the afternoon thing despite us very clearly and firmly (no aggression) shutting it down EVERY time. In my eyes it just isn't appropriate, particularly as he has not been "hands on" in any respect of their lives so far.

It made me very upset to be honest and my husband and I have had to have few very upsetting conversations about his father's intentions.

It also made me aware of how Grandad stays up very late at night, much later than anyone else and on his way to bed he will walk in to the children's room and (I think) watch them. I was aware he did this and before thought he was just being sweet and enjoyed seeing the sleeping children. But now, I am horrified and it has led to me staying awake all night with the bedroom door open, waiting for him to go to bed and being vigilant about him entering the kids room. The fear and lack of sleep felt upsetting. Not going to be able to sleep there again unless I sleep in with the kids.

In addition, recently he has jumped at the chance to accompany either child to do a wee in the bushes (if we have been out and about in the woods without a toilet nearby). Once again, I shut this down every time and felt my son was relieved that I did so.

Finally, I have noticed he will sit on the sofa with the children, all three of them covered up with a blanket. I never gave it ANY thought before all this new, odd behaviour. But now, I am horrified by it and have told my husband we cannot allow it.

In mind I just cannot believe that my FIL could harm his grandsons. On the other hand, these recent behaviours have REALLY upset me and made me concerned. The whole thing has sickened me to be honesg. My instinct is to protect my children at all costs.

Back in August I rang the NSPCC for advice and they validated my concerns and told me (amongst other things-they were wonderfully supportive) to continue being vigilant, to reduce or stop contact if needed and to report to police if any clear abuse happened.

My husband and I have not seen his family since then. Like I said, it has meant some horribly difficult conversations for us and a good few tears.

As we have the distance between us, we have used that as a reason not to meet up through the last school term. Now it is Christmas, we will be stopping with other relatives close by and only doing short ish day trips to see the in laws. I honestly could not cope with an overnight trip at the moment. We hope that shorter trips without the need for any bathtimes at all will put a stop to this behaviour.

I haven't always got along that well with my in laws but the issues we have had in the past have been so trivial and have never stopped us seeing them.

Now that my FIL behaviour has led us to feel it is untoward and potentially concerning, I feel I have been led into a very disturbing place where I have to examine his intentions and consider whether or not he could abuse my children. It feels very dark anf sinister.

We have wondered if the odd behaviour could be an early onset dementia (not something we have brought up with the remainder of the family) or if he really is just clueless as to what is and isn't appropriate behaviour?

I'm not really asking AIBU. I don't feel, when it comes to my children's safety, that IABU at all. I also am not prematurely cutting off the in laws and children's relationship based on a hunch and scant evidence of child abuse.

I am however putting in stronger boundaries re.visits to their home and my husband and I have vowed to each other that we will not leave the children alone with Grandad at all. If anything untoward happens we will be leaving immediately. I am lucky my husband (although sad) is supporting me 100% in this.

I have the strongest feeling that I have to protect my children here and that you cannot rewind in real life so I have to prevent the worst happening. I am dreading the visits but am so, so grateful to my husband for arranging day visits only. Thr overnights and worry would destroy me.

I hope beyond hope that I am wrong and that Grandad poses no threat at all. However, I'm not sure how/if I am ever going to find out the "truth" and will likely spend the rest of their childhood and teen years being cautious etc.

Any advice or perspectives welcome. Please be kind.

Trust those instincts OP.

Don’t take the grandkids to see him; if your dh feels he has to then he can go on his own

Even if you’re being vigilant; he’s still potentially abused them before or makes them feel uncomfortable so they shouldn’t have to be around him

I’ve worked with paedophiles - he is clearly one, but it sounds like he is only recently losing inhibitions. Likely that onset of dementia is unleashing this. There is no doubt here - your sons must be kept away.

I agree you’re right to be wary. I wouldn’t do any overnight visits unless the children are in the same room as you overnight (or one with you and one with your husband) and never left unsupervised by you or your husband, even for a moment.

Also fwiw, as we grew up it changed, what he did, my older sisters were sexually harassed by him, verbally, about puberty and the cajnges to their bodies, about boys at school, vulgar, gross comments, but only if another adult wasn't there. My grandma was deaf, literally, but she wasn't blind. When she died we were encouraged to sit with him, to visit, to sit on his knee to cheer him up in his grief. Years of being encouraged by the adults in our lives to spend normal family time with someone dangerous has affected us all. One sister made several suicide attempts at secondary school, she's an alcoholic now. Older sisters both have eating disorders, no kids because they were too scared history would repeat itself. Older cousin is an alcoholic who beat his wife. All of us abused in one way or another, physical, verbal.
My youngest sister is ok, has no memories at all, she was the baby, but has grown up with it all and lives within the fall out. It was too late by the time I actually told on him to my mum, the damage had been done. You ha e an opportunity to have the.luvesof your children for the better and your husband is supporting that which speaks volumes, goo on him. He can see his parents alone if he needs to, otherwise there is no relationship for you to facilitate, because of what has already happened. Its real, you aren't imagining it or over reacting, well done for getting to this point and knowing it.

@OakRowan . Bless that little innocent girl. What you are describing is so awful that I don’t have the words. When I read posts like yours, I always think about the man, who overpowered me when I was a teen. Not so much for me as although it deeply affected me, when he incapacitated me, he only managed to kiss me, but because as a mother and adult, I now realise he was a seasoned child abuser. And ok, I was fine. But it was also brushed under the carpet and adults around him prioritised. My thoughts are how many more times did far worse happen by his hands. And he, like your grandfather lived his days out in comfort.

Cross post.

1. You're naive if you think you can avoid all and any opportunity for him to abuse your sons if you continue to see him, plus why would you want to live that way?

By making sure he is never alone with them AT ALL, not just in potentially intimate situations, but any and every situation, they are avoiding the potential for abuse. What's the worst he can do in a room full of people, two of whom are watching him like a hawk and will react swiftly to the slightest hint of anything that makes them uncomfortable?

The OP doesn't want to live that way. but neither does she want to break her DH, her PILs and her children's hearts and create merry hell in the wider family by cutting all contact with her DH's parents without a solid enough reason to do so. Because that's no way to live, either. These sorts of accusations, if they turn out to be completely false can be incredibly damaging. They ruin families. They ruin lives. The OP needs to be sure. It's her DH's father, not some random acquaintance who doesn't matter and for whom going NC would be easy.

That doesn't mean she should wait for abuse to happen before she is justified in acting to protect her DC. It doesn't mean she can't take sensible steps to protect them now. She doesn't need concrete 'proof' in the form of a disclosure from the DC, or catching him in an attempt to abuse, in order to put strict protocols in place.

It just means that at this stage, accusing him of being an abuser or a would-be abuser and going full NC is not necessarily the right way forward either.

She and her DH just needs to make sure he is never given the opportunity to abuse.

If and when something else happens that raises their hackles (for example he suggests he takes them swimming by himself or something similar) then they should confront him calmly and tell them he is making them very uncomfortable. A frank, calm but assertive discussion needs to be had, and explicit boundaries need to be outlined to him.

If it were my FIL then I'd want to have this conversation just once, just to see how he reacts and give him a fair chance to modify his behaviour. There is a chance that his behaviour is innocent and well intentioned but very poorly judged and that he is just a bit oblivious to boundaries.

I'd tell him straight that we are extremely uncomfortable with some of the things we've observed and whether it's deliberate or just clumsy and badly judged, we can't take any risks. If it is just poor judgement then he can be given the opportunity to acknowledge that he needs to change, or contact will be stopped.

That's not to say they would never be left alone with him again in future, even if he never put another foot wrong. But giving him a chance to think about how he behaves would be the fair and balanced thing to do first, based on the complete lack of evidence of abuse or any disclosure so far.

Once he knows he's being carefully monitored then I imagine he'd behave very differently. If he choses to throw his toys out of the pram over what he sees as an unfair allegation, then that's on him. Any reasonable, right-thinking grandfather whose intentions were always good would be hurt and embarrassed to have aroused suspicion but I'd hope he would try to understand your POV and would work to make sure he is more mindful of appropriate boundaries in future.

If you handle it right, and don't go off like a pitchfork wielding witch hunter general, then he should be able to take the constructive critisism on the chin and reflect on what brought him here, without feeling too unfairly persecuted.

If he goes off on a defensive tantrum and puts his own pride and feelings above your need to protect his GDCs then that's on him.

But any sign of anything after 'the chat' that makes you think he's trying to get past you, and that would be it.

@OakRowan

We will be doing very short visits, retaurant meet ups and walks at the park with utmost vigilance. No more. If anything else should arise, then we will cut contact I'm afraid.

It is too late for this, cut him off, you cannot keep your children safe from him.

^ This Your post makes me shudder. I think it will be very hard to keep both of them away from him/keep your eye on both/prevent grandad from taking them for a wee, without it being obvious you don’t trust him. I couldn’t be around him knowing what you suspect.

I think you need a boundary chat with your children too. I think I read that your youngest is 5, he can go to toilet without assistance from grandad or any adult he doesn’t know.

100% trust your instincts and protect your boys. However, I potentially would think about trying, before you cut contact significantly, to have a talk with your in-laws (maybe husband needs to lead). It will be very uncomfortable but I wonder if it’s worth one last ditch attempt to put your mind at ease. It may be that you come away totally resolved to minimise contact or it might be that there is some explanation that might make you feel better.

I’m just thinking about it from the point of view of a grandparent. Obviously I would be horrified as well if my DH ever started acting like this, and I wouldn’t allow it. However I’m also thinking that id be so sad if my DS and DDIL stopped visiting and I didn’t know why. I’d much rather have a really awkward conversation where I got a chance to rectify the situation or at least apologise snd understand why they stopped visiting. That way at least your MIL might still be able to come and stay with you on her own, for example.

I don’t know - it’s just a thought. But either way it’s going to be awkward and you might as well be honest I guess

Thank @Mummyoflittledragon, much appreciated, I'm sorry you understand, because of what happened to you too, the physicality of it, the fear. Motherhood gave me a whole new insight into what happened.

Never leave this man alone with your children not even for a minute,

That's what I would do.

It may be early onset dementia. Or it most likely is not. All peadophiles are someone's brother/father/grandfather/the nice man next door.

TBH the fact your DH is on board and understands your concerns makes me wonder about his own childhood.

what an awful situation. I am sorry.

I think it will be very hard to keep both of them away from him/keep your eye on both/prevent grandad from taking them for a wee, without it being obvious you don’t trust him. I couldn’t be around him knowing what you suspect

At this point, I don't think it matters if he gets wind that they don't trust him, does it? What the OP needs is for him to stop doing the things that are causing suspicion. So if he picks up on that and stops, then all good.

It won't change what's already worried her, but it will stop adding fuel to the fire.

Gosh, such a different range of advice and opinion on this post - your head must be spinning OP.

For what it's worth I think your plans are good, you are obviously on the ball and won't let him near them.

TBH the fact your DH is on board and understands your concerns makes me wonder about his own childhood.

Of course. But it's also entirely possible (and perhaps more probable) that there was nothing inappropriate happening in his childhood and this is purely something his father has developed in old age, possibly as a result of the onset of dementia.

Imagine if in ten years time one of your sons discloses that Grandad had done something in the bath/under the blanket. You then say ‘oh yes we always thought he was a risk’ what will you say when your son asks why you continued to make them visit.
You didn’t want to Rock the boat, you were embarrassed to talk about it? Use covid as an excuse for now and cut all contact. Your DH can visit on his own.

If he’s already done something making your kids visit him is cruel. Even if he hasn’t they clearly feel uncomfortable.

I would be cutting all contact.

Your sons already feel uncomfortable around their grandfather, even if they are too young to articulate or understand why they feel that way.

They have already been groomed- the process has already begun and further visits (however strictly and diligently supervised), will continue to cause confusion.

They will see you all sitting around the dining table having normal conversations etc as if nothing is wrong with a family member who makes them feel uncomfortable. They will get very mixed messages from this and in time learn to distrust their own instincts.

This will leave them vulnerable to grooming at other points in their childhood, if not from him, then from others.

You need to sever all contact from now on and I would also be getting advice from the police.

I don’t understand the point of your post, tbh. You rang the NSPCC back in August and they “validated your concerns”. Isn’t this enough? What you said about the first “afternoon bath” made me feel sick - I would have stopped visiting them after this.

Personally I’d stop contact. Perhaps he has the onset of dementia, perhaps not. That’s a side issue, really. I think he sounds really really creepy.

Have zero contact op PLEASE...

I remember a horrid thread about a grandfather and I use the term loosely, AS HE behaved inappropriately with his grandsons or grandkids and was always putting his hands down nappies or wiggling his fingers down the boys pants and they were very young too, like toddlers and preschool age was the youngest and reception age was the eldest. He would also ask the children if they washed his bum they would win pocket money. We can all throw up together.

This thread and yours both sound dire and my father in law would never suggest bathing the kids in the middle of the day. He would be suggesting puzzles or go for a walk in the park etc. Sounds very very strange. And you're right In thinking of having zero contact with this loser of a grandparent. You need to follow it through and I'd also go to the police.
Who jumps at the chance of helping a kid wee when the parents are there!!!!!

What is grandma like?

Imagine if in ten years time one of your sons discloses that Grandad had done something in the bath/under the blanket. You then say ‘oh yes we always thought he was a risk’ what will you say when your son asks why you continued to make them visit.
You didn’t want to Rock the boat, you were embarrassed to talk about it? Use covid as an excuse for now and cut all contact. Your DH can visit on his own.
@WeRTheOnesWeHaveBeenWaitingFor exactly this, yes, my mum told me as an adult she always knew he wasn't a safe man, she was uncomfortable taking us there, that she instinctively knew, but felt she had know choices. My aunties and uncles even told her after well you shouldn't have left the kids with him, even though they denied he had done anything, he was a saint, a pillar of the community who actually ran a toyshop that sold prams and highchairs and the like too, they defended him and blamed my mum.That took apart our relationship, how could you do that to us?

@weRtheoneswehavebeenwaitingfor

Here here!!! Well put!!!

@Neveratruerword yes sorry I might have got mixed up. Thankful you knew what I meant x

What an awful situation.

I don't think you have any choice but to cut contact tbh. There are red flags all over the place on this one. It's not just a feeling, there's every chance based on what you've said that you've actually already walked in on at least two incidents of abuse. I'm sorry to point that out OP because I realise even contemplating that is hurtful for you.

I just don't think you can take the chance on allowing any further contact at all. You could avoid it or you could be up front about why. But your plan (as it stands) is not enough to protect your DCs. Abuse can and does happen in plain sight and the only way to fully protect is to go no contact.