TW. Could Grandad harm or abuse my children?

[Neveratruerword]

My FIL, this summer, on four separate occasions has tried to take my sons for a bath (in the middle of the afternoon) without me or my husband around.

We tend to stay a few nights each time we visit, as we live a considerable distance from them and go to visit for a night or two.

The first time, he managed to get the children (age 7&5) into the bath without us knowing (husband napping downstairs and me unpacking bags). What got me concerned was that he said the children had asked for a bath in the middle of the afternoon whereas later on my mother in law mentioned that it had all been Grandad's idea. So either there was a misunderstanding or Grandad was not telling the truth.

At this point, I had concerns:

1. He has never been a hands on grandad in terms of childcare or hygiene. So why this sudden desire, now the boys are 7 & 5?

1. There is no way my sons would have asked for a bath at 3pm in the afternoon. This idea of an 'activity' has to have come from him. Why not something more normal like walking to the park or a kick about with a ball in the garden?

1. The discrepancies between what my MIL and FIL said had happened.

Bit worrying really but I didn't bother too much at this point.

Anyway, as we had been kept apart all last Christmas until the April due to Covid, we tried to make up for it and made another three trips up to see them between May and August. Each time, Grandad has tried to bath the kids in the afternoon. Myself and husband have shut it down every time with a clear "No thank you Grandad".

In fact, on one of the evenings when we were bathing them ourselves (at the normal time!!) our oldest son stated he wanted privacy so we told Grandad that and didn't allow him in, respecting our sons wishes. FWIW neither of our sons have disclosed anything about Grandad.

I don't know why but he still kept trying to do this ridiculous bathing in the afternoon thing despite us very clearly and firmly (no aggression) shutting it down EVERY time. In my eyes it just isn't appropriate, particularly as he has not been "hands on" in any respect of their lives so far.

It made me very upset to be honest and my husband and I have had to have few very upsetting conversations about his father's intentions.

It also made me aware of how Grandad stays up very late at night, much later than anyone else and on his way to bed he will walk in to the children's room and (I think) watch them. I was aware he did this and before thought he was just being sweet and enjoyed seeing the sleeping children. But now, I am horrified and it has led to me staying awake all night with the bedroom door open, waiting for him to go to bed and being vigilant about him entering the kids room. The fear and lack of sleep felt upsetting. Not going to be able to sleep there again unless I sleep in with the kids.

In addition, recently he has jumped at the chance to accompany either child to do a wee in the bushes (if we have been out and about in the woods without a toilet nearby). Once again, I shut this down every time and felt my son was relieved that I did so.

Finally, I have noticed he will sit on the sofa with the children, all three of them covered up with a blanket. I never gave it ANY thought before all this new, odd behaviour. But now, I am horrified by it and have told my husband we cannot allow it.

In mind I just cannot believe that my FIL could harm his grandsons. On the other hand, these recent behaviours have REALLY upset me and made me concerned. The whole thing has sickened me to be honesg. My instinct is to protect my children at all costs.

Back in August I rang the NSPCC for advice and they validated my concerns and told me (amongst other things-they were wonderfully supportive) to continue being vigilant, to reduce or stop contact if needed and to report to police if any clear abuse happened.

My husband and I have not seen his family since then. Like I said, it has meant some horribly difficult conversations for us and a good few tears.

As we have the distance between us, we have used that as a reason not to meet up through the last school term. Now it is Christmas, we will be stopping with other relatives close by and only doing short ish day trips to see the in laws. I honestly could not cope with an overnight trip at the moment. We hope that shorter trips without the need for any bathtimes at all will put a stop to this behaviour.

I haven't always got along that well with my in laws but the issues we have had in the past have been so trivial and have never stopped us seeing them.

Now that my FIL behaviour has led us to feel it is untoward and potentially concerning, I feel I have been led into a very disturbing place where I have to examine his intentions and consider whether or not he could abuse my children. It feels very dark anf sinister.

We have wondered if the odd behaviour could be an early onset dementia (not something we have brought up with the remainder of the family) or if he really is just clueless as to what is and isn't appropriate behaviour?

I'm not really asking AIBU. I don't feel, when it comes to my children's safety, that IABU at all. I also am not prematurely cutting off the in laws and children's relationship based on a hunch and scant evidence of child abuse.

I am however putting in stronger boundaries re.visits to their home and my husband and I have vowed to each other that we will not leave the children alone with Grandad at all. If anything untoward happens we will be leaving immediately. I am lucky my husband (although sad) is supporting me 100% in this.

I have the strongest feeling that I have to protect my children here and that you cannot rewind in real life so I have to prevent the worst happening. I am dreading the visits but am so, so grateful to my husband for arranging day visits only. Thr overnights and worry would destroy me.

I hope beyond hope that I am wrong and that Grandad poses no threat at all. However, I'm not sure how/if I am ever going to find out the "truth" and will likely spend the rest of their childhood and teen years being cautious etc.

Any advice or perspectives welcome. Please be kind.

God i have no good advice but I just feel for you. It's a utterly awful situation.
Not having the complication of unsupervised visits with DHs siblings is perhaps one silver lining. As is your DH understanding/seeing the risk too.

I think you are handling it really well, it's incredibly nuanced and not clear cut.
ultimately those symptoms are extreme and mean you are going to be overloading yourself with adrenaline and cortisol-long term that is very bad news. You and your husband need to keep talking and find a way to address that too. You likely already know but suppressing it or "getting on with it" isn't the answer.

@Ndujawannadance

I have as much anxiety as the next person. Anxiety happens but has never stopped me living my life.

My husband isn't just going along with my wishes to keep me calm. He is understanding of the situation and I am sure finds it very difficult at times to come to terms with. He doesn't say unless I bring it up, in which case he reassures me that we will NEVER allow his father to be alone with them.

You're doing all the right things but how upsetting. I would make my excuses to never stay overnight there again. Short day visits, walks supervised outside, that would be it.

1. You're naive if you think you can avoid all and any opportunity for him to abuse your sons if you continue to see him, plus why would you want to live that way?
2. Your sons' safety trumps anyones feelings
3. What he's already done is enough cause to explain why you are not seeing him again. Even if it's all innocent, it's totally weird (baths? Sleeping?) and I'm afraid the benefit of the doubt has to lie on the side of your children.

@Turmerictolly

Yes. It is incredibly upsetting. Very.

We will be doing very short visits, retaurant meet ups and walks at the park with utmost vigilance. No more. If anything else should arise, then we will cut contact I'm afraid.

I am horrified and it has led to me staying awake all night with the bedroom door open, waiting for him to go to bed and being vigilant about him entering the kids room. The fear and lack of sleep felt upsetting. Not going to be able to sleep there again unless I sleep in with the kids.

I would absolutely be sleeping with the kids. Or you do in with one and put the other in with your DH. But don't let FIL know this is the plan. See what happens. At the very least you could say when he comes in 'Please don't do that - I don't want them woken. It takes me ages to settle them again. And you really shouldn't be coming into children's bedrooms uninvited.'

Again, how he chooses to react will speak volumes. If his intentions are bad, he'll know you are onto him.

@arcof

In response.

1. I DONT want to live that way. It has been brought into our lives by his behaviour this summer. Whether we see the man or not, the spectre of this disgusting potential abuse looms large no.matter what we do.

2. of course it does. However it is no inconsiderable thing to ask my husband to cut ties with his family. Yes it is relatively minor compared to my sons safety and wellbeing. But it is not an insignificant act.

@NdujaWannaDance

Thank you....we won't be stopping over again.

Idk how old your fil is but some men continue to be very strong even when elderly. A man in his early 80s managed to overpower me at in my teens. He had a very strong grip and upper body strength. As I was a teenager and pretty feisty, I screamed and swore at him and he let go of me and scarpered… very slowly as he could hardly walk. Being a girl, I didn’t go through male puberty. Your 5 yo is at least 8 years (probably more like 10+) away from possibly being able to hold his own against his grandfather. I get you are conflicted. However, your fil is not respecting your children’s boundaries so please have a think as to why are you protecting him to your mental health and family’s detriment.

If you cannot cut contact now, you are going to need to either only see them in a very confined setting and / or to have the conversation about how he sounds like a paedophile / kiddy fiddler / child molester (whichever he will understand most). And that because of this, the children will not be alone in his presence… or on his knee / under a blanket and so forth. The reaction will be telling.

Policing your fil will not work in the long run. Your boys will increasingly find independence and be in your company less and less. And this a lot before they are strong and old enough to protect themselves.

How old is FIL.

It is not surprising you have anxiety about this, OP. Its really concerning, please trust your instincts and don't make excuses for them about needing to visit. If his intentions are suspect, he will find a way somehow even if you are in the room. I would not have have him near DC at all - even in a restaurant. Can you find a way to not visit with your DC until they are considerably older? Cite distance, schoolwork, oets, allergy, anything. Definitely have the conversation with him about boundaries generally. His reaction will tell you a lot, and if he does not stick to boundaries - then there is your other way out.
It would be worth your DH speaking to his siblings to see if there is anything dodgy lurking in the past for any of them.

Cross post. I see you’re going to do this. Brilliant. Your boys will be protected. I’m so glad this thread has helped you find clarity.

@mummyoflittledragon

@yourenutsmiLord

He is in early seventies.

@HyacynthBucket

Yes all those excuses and more will be used. Thank you.

I'd say grandad we've told the boys they don't need a bath during the day when they are here and if they do mummy or daddy will do that thank you.

Also Claire's law - get him checked in relation to that.

@HyacynthBucket

I think it would be easier for my husband to cut contact all together than have those kinds of conversations with his siblings.
They are not an open sort of family.

I had a grandad like this, the abuse started while we were still in nappies, before we could talk, I was 7 o 8 before I could communicate that he was 'hurting' us, he abused my older sisters, my cousins, neighbours kids. While other adults were in the room. Please, please cut contact, its already ruining your family life.

@OakRowan

I am so sorry to hear this. I hope you are okay.

@ifeelabitsad

I think Claire's Law is domestic violence?

I am going to look at Sarah's Law which is for child sex offenders/those who pose a risk to children.

Your first post really struck a cord with me OP. These are the exact things my father would do when he was abusing me at around the same age as your sons. He would constantly ask if I wanted a bath in the middle of the day, would sit me on his lap in the evening when the whole family were in the room but nobody would notice the abuse because he would put a blanket over us, he would also find any excuse to be alone with me and because he was my father nobody picked up on it. I really wish that somebody had said something and stopped it sooner.

Thanks. 40 something years later it destroyed our family, I am estranged from the parents who didn't protect us, it affected my education, my career, my own family life. I've had treatment, support, but it remains in my body as physical memories that I cannot take away, that affected me in childbirth and again now in pregnancy with my next baby. My grandad was strong right to the end, , like the poster above said. He held us down, played 'games' with us, in front of other adults in the room that were sexual assault. Dat on his knee, sat by us. You don't know that its isn't already happening to your children, that they're aren't too scared to tell you, or that it so incomprehensible to them that the can't tell you, because the dont have the words. There isn't a safe way for you and your children to have contact with their grandfather. My older relatives were probably also sexually abused, definitely physically, they became complicit in his treatment of all of us grandchildren, as did my grandma, they ignored it, denial. After it all came out, I told my mum and showed her an injury that was indisputable as sexual assault the police became involved, because my mum confided in a family friend, who rang the police. This was the 80s, they spoke to my mum, and his GP (?) and were told it was best to wait and see if it ever happened again. I was disbelieved from then on, Christmas presents stopped, Easter eggs, no more birthdays from my dad's family, because I was a liar. Same for all my sibling. Still had to go to family events, never saw him again but still saw his kids for years after and was treated appallingly. No one believed me. My mum didn't even tell my dad everything, just stopped taking us to visit or leaving us there for childcare. I never could tell my mum with adult words what he had been doing, just that he had scratched me. It never goes away. I found out after he had died he was under a community legal order not to ha e contact with children because of other complaints. He died before I was old enough to go to the police, as an adult this is my biggest regret he should've died in prison but his entire family protected him. And I was supposed to be ok because I never had to see him again, but it was too late for me and my sisters by then, all 5 of us.
Dont let this happen to your family, to your children. Its too late for you to ever see him again, it is already happening to you and your kids.

My uncle sexually abused me under a blanket with my parents on the same couch, I was frozen with fear. He'd also been telling me it was a secret and my parents/me would go to jail if I told.
He would molest me on trips to/from the bathroom, under the table at home and restaurants.
Trust your instincts.
Listen to your son telling you as best he knows how that he's uncomfortable round this man.
Stay away. Don't underestimate the ability of a paedophile to groom the whole family.
Hyper vigilance isn't enough, he'll find a way.

Tell your kids secrets are bad and no adult should ask them to keep secrets.
Surprises are good and are like secrets but are happy things and only for a very short while eg mummy's Christmas present.
But secrets should always be told to mum or dad.

We will be doing very short visits, retaurant meet ups and walks at the park with utmost vigilance. No more. If anything else should arise, then we will cut contact I'm afraid.

It is too late for this, cut him off, you cannot keep your children safe from him.