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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

The big anti-Covid pass protest tomorrow in London

222 replies

User135644 · 17/12/2021 22:06

AIBU or is this really not helpful to have them all gathering in the middle of London? It's the new epicentre of Covid while the virus peaks to previously unseen levels case wise. They're protesting against any new restrictions yet their actions tomorrow will make restrictions more likely.

I accept their right to protest but think it's unhelpful at this juncture, especially a week before Christmas. No doubt people bused in from around the country who'll then spread it back to their own home town.

Not to mention a lot of these people will be unvaccinated which puts the hospitals under more strain if it turns into a superspreader event. These Saturday protest jollies in London are always filled with anti-vax speakers, posters and paraphernalia.

OP posts:
MarshaBradyo · 18/12/2021 18:03

Other countries use passes to drive up vaccination rates but with LFT option it’s not as relevant

Echobelly · 18/12/2021 18:08

Also totally agree with @Zotter that other things the government are doing are worth worrying about but COVID rules are not connected.

It's interesting to note that apparently every MP who voted against the government's extremely low-impact covid 'restrictions' last week voted for voter ID - something far more harmful to freedom and blatantly in this government's interests (given that it's most likely to impact people of colour, poorest people).

Covid restrictions don't benefit this government at all - it forces them to subsidise businesses, loses them taxes, crashes the economy, knocks value off their and their mates' commercial property portfolios etc. As can be demonstrated by their extreme reluctance to put them in place when they should and their hurry to get out of them against scientific advice.

Buzzinwithbez · 18/12/2021 18:25

Isn't 18th December the date of the first Downing St party we were made aware of?
It seems as good a date for a protest as any.
Personally I'd have liked to go and stand with the NHS workers who are being worked to the bone now but will be made to leave their job in the Spring. I think it's a diabolical decision.

SheikhMaraca · 18/12/2021 18:46

@Twillow

Excuse my ignorance *@PestoSugarPlumFairy* but I don't really understand how vaccine passports are an assault on our liberties? What is the thinking there? Doesn't it give people more freedom to go out?
Honestly, I despair sometimes.

How can you have reached adulthood and still be this ignorant?

…and no I won’t ‘excuse’ it. Lack of understanding on this scale is totally inexcusable.

SheikhMaraca · 18/12/2021 18:48

[quote Zotter]Vaccine passports are a huge assault on our liberties, so good for them for making a stand.

The Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts bill going through our Parliament at the mo is an assault on our liberties. Yet little said about it.

[/quote] As Machiavelli said, never let a good crisis go to waste.
Emilyontmoor · 18/12/2021 19:19

Sheick Were you in Parliament Square today because you are displaying similar social and intellectual skills? It is not necessary to be so rude and superior without engaging in the argument. There is a perfectly legitimate debate about where vaccine passports as a public health measure to contain a virus lie on the balance between individual liberty and the collective good. That is entirely separate from the issues George Monbiot is raising about the governments power grab from the pillars of our democratic protections and institutions. There are lots of public health measures that infringe individual liberty such as the freedom to smoke, to not wear a seat belt etc. etc.

The contradiction in the libertarian argument is that they are very selective in which liberties they give to who. The liberty not to wear a mask is important when many of those libertarian MPs voted against gay marriage and some support banning abortion, a liberty that matters greatly to me.

Emilyontmoor · 18/12/2021 19:26

In fact one of the things I find most obnoxious about those protesters is that they have appropriated the rhetoric of the pro choice movement, who are protecting a freedom that literally has no repercussions for the rest of society (unlike the alternative offered by the anti abortion movement)

FakingMemories · 18/12/2021 19:42

Good grief. Why is there always the assumption that the unvaxxed are permanently contaminated and infectious? They cannot spread a disease they don’t have. Some may have it. Many won’t. Vaxxed people can also spread it.

And you can be in support of the vaccines, and be vaccinated, but still be anti-mandate, anti-“show us your papers”, anti-anything that hasn’t worked so far such as masks. I’m not anti vax. I’m pro-choice and support medical and bodily freedom. They are two completely different concepts.

Emilyontmoor · 18/12/2021 19:43

As I thought George had actually written in this issue www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/22/leftwingers-far-right-conspiracy-theories-anti-vaxxers-power?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

SunscreenCentral · 18/12/2021 20:07

Haven't read the full thread

On the plus side, soon the right to protest (about anything, ever) will be gone in the UK.
So you won't have to worry about this kind of thing anymore

Hmm
Emilyontmoor · 18/12/2021 20:08

Faking I suggest you read that link….

wincarwoo · 18/12/2021 20:08

@FakingMemories

Good grief. Why is there always the assumption that the unvaxxed are permanently contaminated and infectious? They cannot spread a disease they don’t have. Some may have it. Many won’t. Vaxxed people can also spread it.

And you can be in support of the vaccines, and be vaccinated, but still be anti-mandate, anti-“show us your papers”, anti-anything that hasn’t worked so far such as masks. I’m not anti vax. I’m pro-choice and support medical and bodily freedom. They are two completely different concepts.

Of course they are not but the point is the increased risk to them and the impact on others suffering from medical conditions which are unavoidable and for which there is no vaccine.

I wonder if Covid caused disfigurement whether the reactions would be difficult.

And seriously wear a mask. It's not difficult.

Emilyontmoor · 18/12/2021 20:12

“ Every few days I hear of another acquaintance who has become seriously ill with Covid, after proudly proclaiming the benefits of “natural immunity”, denouncing vaccines and refusing to take the precautions that apply to lesser mortals. Some have been hospitalised. Within these circles, which have for so long sought to cultivate a good society, there are people actively threatening the lives of others.”

“I mean the balance between competing values in which true radicalism is to be found: reason and warmth, empiricism and empathy, liberty and consideration. It is this balance that defends us from both co-option and extremism.

While we might seek simplicity, we need also to recognise that the human body, human society and the natural world are phenomenally complex, and cannot be easily understood. Life is messy. Bodily and spiritual sovereignty are illusions. There is no pure essence; we are all mudbloods.”

ddl1 · 18/12/2021 20:13

Vaxxed people can spread it, but they're less likely to. Because they're less likely to get it. Just as you can get in a car accident even if you keep to the speed limit, but you're less likely to than if you speed.

I do think they have a right to protest, though. Because having the right to protest is key to democracy. Even idiots should have the right to protest. I know it could be unwise in these times; but at least it's outdoors.

Tealightsandd · 18/12/2021 20:41

but at least it's outdoors.

Did they fly there on broomsticks?

With rights come responsibilities. The right to protest should not trump the right to life and safety.

And the right to protest extends only to peaceful protest. Doing what they're doing under the current circumstances is arguably not a peaceful act.

wincarwoo · 18/12/2021 20:50

@Tealightsandd

but at least it's outdoors.

Did they fly there on broomsticks?

With rights come responsibilities. The right to protest should not trump the right to life and safety.

And the right to protest extends only to peaceful protest. Doing what they're doing under the current circumstances is arguably not a peaceful act.

Totally. The ignorance is completely baffling. We have "major incident" and they are wilfully making it worse. It's absolutely the worst kind of western privilege.
Tealightsandd · 18/12/2021 20:55

It's absolutely the worst kind of western privilege.

Definitely. We are so lucky to have good access to these life and health saving vaccines (logistics and infrastructure to deliver, as much as supply). Some countries don't have that privilege.

Dottybackorcid · 18/12/2021 21:04

Well I would be 100% ashamed of the scenes I watched live on YouTube today of this protest.
Large crowds of people whom singled out a female police officer and were chanting look at that fat little police woman, she's so far she's out of breath just standing there shame on her. This went on for over 30 minutes, then soon after they stated to geer and throw the metal barrier's at the police. Angry utterly vile people.

ddl1 · 18/12/2021 21:09

@Dottybackorcid

Well I would be 100% ashamed of the scenes I watched live on YouTube today of this protest. Large crowds of people whom singled out a female police officer and were chanting look at that fat little police woman, she's so far she's out of breath just standing there shame on her. This went on for over 30 minutes, then soon after they stated to geer and throw the metal barrier's at the police. Angry utterly vile people.
I agree, disgusting behaviour. And I'm one of those who has defended their right to protest in principle; but taunting and throwing stuff at the police (or anyone!) is not on. Too many of them seem to be a bunch of semi-retired football hooligans!
UsernameInTheTown · 18/12/2021 21:11

Good for them. Riots next. We've had enough of the hypocrisy.

Dottybackorcid · 18/12/2021 21:15

@UsernameInTheTown

Good for them. Riots next. We've had enough of the hypocrisy.
Well I hate to break it to you but, your not going to change anything. Especially with attitude s like today, oh and please feel free to quote me on that in the future.
Emilyontmoor · 18/12/2021 21:17

Large crowds of people whom singled out a female police officer and were chanting look at that fat little police woman, she's so far she's out of breath just standing there shame on her. This went on for over 30 minutes, then soon after they stated to geer and throw the metal barrier's at the police. angry utterly vile people. Basically freedom for unattractive white men - I have heard a lot of misogyny by those marchers. I don’t want to even think i about how far that would extend if they had the opportunity.

MarshaBradyo · 18/12/2021 21:23

It’s very sad

Natty13 · 18/12/2021 21:26

They are a stones throw away from one of the country's busiest hospitals. The same brand of pond scum were outside on NYE last year shouting and chanting that the wards were empty. They could be heard on the ICU (which was 200% full at the time. So were the 5 extra ICUs that had to be set up on other wards). Pond scum and I can only hope they kill off each other and nobody else alon the way.

wincarwoo · 18/12/2021 21:43

@Natty13 I completely agree with you.