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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to have requested single sex rape crisis therapy?

564 replies

IamSarah · 08/12/2021 13:56

My local rape crisis centre offers a dedicated support group for trans and non-binary survivors and a women's group open to anyone who identifies as a woman.

After a male (presenting as male) turned up in the women's group I requested an additional group for women who were born women. This request was turned down and I was told that group support isn't for me. AIBU?

YABU: You shouldn't need an additional, exclusive group for biological women

YANBU: Under these circumstances, a single sex group just for biological women was a reasonable request

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
MrsTerryPratchett · 09/12/2021 20:01

@NeedsCharging

I will hide this thread as what I want to say to Hont will get me banned.

When these safe spaces for women were set up women were biological women not fucking perverted men looking to crack one out listen to rape victims discuss their trauma.
The fact that some idiotic stupid patriarchy loving women accept these perverts doesn't make it right!.

I shall await deletion.
Sorry MNHQ.

It will be deleted but I just wanted to send you some love and support. I know it's difficult to talk about your experiences in the face of hostility and almost psychopathic lack of empathy.

Peace and light to you.

lifeturnsonadime · 09/12/2021 20:03

Hont is being honest.

It's a men's rights movement. Women come last.

Anyone who doubted this and reads the last 2 pages and is of sound mind will now know the truth of the agenda.

Franklin12 · 09/12/2021 20:03

So so sick of this. Women need female only spaces, not spaces that can be entered by men who say they feel they are women. What could possibly go wrong....

Sorry to make this political but this is why Labour are in such a mess with their self identity policies.

Can we have women only spaces be that hospital wards, changing rooms and indeed rape therapy centres.

Anything else is madness.

TheKeatingFive · 09/12/2021 20:06

And there was no man joining in on a women's group, because it was a woman, a trans woman

Nope. A biological man. You cant physically change sex. Are you going to argue you can?

EricCartmansUnderpants · 09/12/2021 20:07

And there was no man joining in on a women's group, because it was a woman, a trans woman

I'd like to know the difference between the two.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/12/2021 20:15

Feminists set up these spaces through their blood, sweat, and tears

Most of the spaces set up by actual feminists recognise the need for women to have single sex spaces. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who put other things before women's rights in the charity sector. Plus funding issues, and a push to be "inclusive" which is deaf and blind to being inclusive of female rape survivors who overwhelmingly don't want males in their recovery spaces.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/12/2021 20:17

it was a trans woman who presumably identified as a woman.

If they were obviously male, why should OP care what their inner personal identity was? Why is it relevant?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/12/2021 20:19

You're quite right, NeedsCharging. We need to enshrine the right of women to single sex rape crisis services in legislation.

SolasAnla · 09/12/2021 20:23

@MizzFizz
Most people use the words female and male in the contest of sexual reproduction. You will note there are only 2 reproductive roles identified.
Female indicate the sex who's reproductive role is to produce ovum.
Woman (as in adult human female) is the word allocate to differentiate the sex of human which is ovum producing from other animals.
Male indicate the sex who's reproductive role is to produce sperm.
Man (as in adult human male) is the word allocate to differentiate the sex of human which is sperm producing from other animals.

"Cis" is a word used within a belief system to merge members of opposite sexes into an classification organised around a political ideology of gender roles.
The belief system would define woman as adult human female and some males
and define man as adult human male and some females.

@Hont1986
Are you able to put your belief system into words?

If you can, please expand on what elements you would use to differentiate between
• a male presenting as a male who was sexually assaulted
and
• a male presenting as a woman who was sexually assaulted
when it comes to including or excluding them from groups providing support for people who were sexually assaulted.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/12/2021 20:24

And there was no man joining in on a women's group, because it was a woman, a trans woman. I know you don't believe that, but I and more importantly the charity providing the service do.

Why do you personally believe them? Do you know this person IRL? If not, it's literally just a random male person declaring themselves to be a woman. Is that what you think a woman is?

ShrillSiren · 09/12/2021 20:28

Lurkers, take note of the #bekind crowd, notice that they're only ever kind to people that follow the party line (and men, always kind to men, if they really saw TWAW they wouldn't be kind to them either).

They won't care about you or your trauma unless you're pure enough. Think about if this is really something you want in schools and universities, in all areas of government and much more. Start to fight back because it's not actually about being kind at all. It's about taking over.

urbanbuddha · 09/12/2021 21:16

@urbanbuddha

What I don't understand at all is why transwomen are not empathetic to a woman rape survivor. Why don't these people who claim they are women realise that a person with a penis in the room is the last thing this woman needs?
As I said earlier I totally agree with the need for women to have safe spaces and I think that a rape crisis centre must offer support to women only groups. The trauma of rape means that the need for safe spaces for (natal) women to start to heal is paramount. Transwomen should respect this. However it does not follow that I therefore think that transwomen are not women. In the specific instance of a rape survivors' group they cannot be present. Sneering about feminism comes from a very masculine standpoint. A more enlightened regard for feminist viewpoints in the trans community would benefit everyone.
lifeturnsonadime · 09/12/2021 21:22

Urbanbudda but it doesn't really make sense to say that TWAW but yet recognise instances in which women need single sex spaces.

If they are not always women then what are they? What is the difference?

Feminism is for females, TW are not females. Can't you see that the very way that TRAs are behaving, in insisting TW are women, makes it impossible for TW and feminists to be allies? TRAs aren't doing TW any favours which is why many TW don't agree with the TWAW mantra. It aids no one because it's not the truth.

Feelingoktoday · 09/12/2021 21:37

@Hont1986

I voted YABU. There were some comments earlier saying that people who voted YABU should explain why. Charities don't have unlimited resources and I don't feel you can expect them to provide additional groups that go against their moral/political beliefs at your request. So that's why.
Unbelievable. It has nothing to do with funding. It is about woke beliefs.
Feelingoktoday · 09/12/2021 21:40

So if TWAW would you be happy for your daughter to share a group shower with a TW? If so, then you would be happy for her to share a group shower with a man.

EricCartmansUnderpants · 09/12/2021 21:43

@Feelingoktoday

So if TWAW would you be happy for your daughter to share a group shower with a TW? If so, then you would be happy for her to share a group shower with a man.
No fucking way. To both.
TheKeatingFive · 09/12/2021 21:44

However it does not follow that I therefore think that transwomen are not women.

Biologically they are demonstrably not women.

What other definition of woman trumps biology?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/12/2021 21:52

However it does not follow that I therefore think that transwomen are not women. In the specific instance of a rape survivors' group they cannot be present.

I think it's pretty obvious that you know they are not. Let's bear in mind that a "transwoman" is any male who declares that they are a woman. Your statement is a faith based one, and you think inclusion of these biologically male people into the social class "woman" takes precedence over scientific reality and most sex based situations.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/12/2021 21:58

MN that only people with a penis can rape. This is not the case.

It's the case that a penis is always involved. That is the offence of rape in this country. There are only two ways a "woman" is guilty of rape.

A) She is the female accomplice of a male rapist and assists him in the act of penetrating someone of either sex with his penis

The "woman" is a male person

SolasAnla · 09/12/2021 22:05

urbanbuddha, the contradiction in that statement actually demonstrates how you dont support your own meaning when altering the word woman to read as adult human female and some males.

Your policy position only works if you classify by and recognise biology.

What I am reading is as follows:
As I said earlier I totally agree with the need for women females to have safe spaces and I think that a rape crisis centre must offer support to women female only groups. The trauma of rape means that the need for safe spaces for (natal) women females to start to heal is paramount.
Transwomen Males should respect this.
However it does not follow that I therefore think that transwomen males are not women females. In the specific instance of a rape survivors' group they males cannot be present.

No organisation can have a policy which uses 2 different meanings for the same word.

MizzFizz · 09/12/2021 22:09

@SolasAnla your explanation doesn't help me understand why a man was in the women's group? Or did I miss something?

KaycePollard · 09/12/2021 22:14

That is quite different from a trans woman attending a women's group, which I think is fine.

No it's not. That automatically turns the group into a mixed sex group.

Single-sex groups are not illegal, whatever some ill-informed activists & their followers may tell you.

lifeturnsonadime · 09/12/2021 22:15

Miss Fizz, gender ideology doesn't require a change in physical appearance. Gender is innate. A simple declaration that a man is a woman is enough.

So a man who appears to be male who declares to be a woman must be believed when he says he is a woman.

ShrillSiren · 09/12/2021 22:16

[quote MizzFizz]@SolasAnla your explanation doesn't help me understand why a man was in the women's group? Or did I miss something?[/quote]
Well, how do you tell the difference between a TW and a man? TW don't need to make any changes to themselves whatsoever. Not clothes/hormones/surgery.

In this brand new world, it's not the old style transexuals anymore who may have made some sort of effort (not that I think they should be in female only rape crisis groups either). It is literally any male that wants to be there.

How can you prove they're not a woman if it's all based on a feeling in their heads?

SolasAnla · 09/12/2021 22:17

[quote MizzFizz]@SolasAnla your explanation doesn't help me understand why a man was in the women's group? Or did I miss something?[/quote]
@MizzFizz

The question is:
What are the meanings of the word man and woman?

Your definition differs from the service provider