Surcharge for unvaccinated people needing hospital treatment for covid

[Bwix]

I’m just reading in the Times this morning how much cancer care, treatment of kidney and heart disease and organ transplants are being delayed and disrupted due to the strain on the NHS by unvaccinated patients. Of people needing the most intervention, 90% are unvaccinated.

Not all of these will be unvaccinated for medical reasons. We have had vaccines available for all adults for months now. I think it is reasonable for people to decide not to have a vaccine (just as they might want to drive fast without a seatbelt or climb a mountain face without a harness). But there should be a consequence that they face as individuals, as a result of that decision: that if they need care as a consequence of something they could have prevented, that they pick up the bill.

I’m really upset to know that friends and relatives with cancer may die as a result of their treatment being delayed, and it’s due to strains on the system that could be avoided.

I fell off my bike and fractured my shoulder needing surgery. Silly me, getting on my bike.

My colleague, early 30s, non smoker, moderate drinker, healthy bmi, regular exercise, caught covid despite both jabs. Fortunately he didn't need hospital admission, but he was badly affected.

I'm pro vaccine but think there's an ethical dilemma there.

@Spidey66

I fell off my bike and fractured my shoulder needing surgery. Silly me, getting on my bike.

My colleague, early 30s, non smoker, moderate drinker, healthy bmi, regular exercise, caught covid despite both jabs. Fortunately he didn't need hospital admission, but he was badly affected.

I'm pro vaccine but think there's an ethical dilemma there.

I don't think it is an ethical dilemma.

I've seen it explained several times that on a population level, people who like riding bikes, doing team sports etc have fewer health conditions across their lifetimes than the sedentary.

So we 'put up with' the occasional accident requiring treatment as the cost for lots of people doing that activity, although we might require or pressure them to take some sort of responsibility such as wearing a helmet, using bike lights or banning them from cycling on motorways

Alcohol and tobacco - governments tax the fuck out of it, so users are pre-paying for their treatment at the time of consumption

None of that is the same as vaccine refusers
Their refusal doesn't bring any benefits at a population or individual level, despite the scaremongering around risks of death or injury

They are just a drain and burden which is entirely preventable at very little cost to themselves

Let's hope none of them are obese, smokers, drinkers, junk food eaters, not exercising, type 2 diabetic etc.

Bloody stupid idea to screen unless you want a fully private health service.

Get on to gov about air pollution which causes more deaths per year than covid.

Do people on here seriously believe that only the unvaccinated are spreading Covid? Come on now.

@Lavender24

Do people on here seriously believe that only the unvaccinated are spreading Covid? Come on now.

No one has said that But when the stats are that over 90% of people in ICU with covid are unvaccinated, it is clear that the burden of covid on the NHS is coming from unvaccinated people

Every time anyone starts a thread about surcharges or refusing treatment to the unvaccinated, you just get a million posts saying 'bUt wHAt abOUt sMoKerS'. There were several on the first page and yet people are still saying it!

I'm not going to get into an argument about whether it's comparable (it's not...) because people have already done that and it's clearly not sinking in.

FWIW I also don't think a surcharge or refusing treatment is the answer. It has to be the carrot rather than the stick, unless and until the NHS is fully overwhelmed, rather than hanging on by a single peeling fingernail like it has been forever.

So I'd be in favour of incentives, better education and engagement via TV and SM, making it easier for people to get walk in jabs, etc. It feels like there's a lot more we could be doing, but aren't.

Wouldn't it be better to just not prioritise an unvaccinated COVID case over a life saving cancer (or other urgent) surgery. Both might die as a result of a delay - why does the covid case get treated but the cancer case gets left?

SW1amp I believe someone on the first page did.

@insancerre

The strain on the nhs is from underfunding by the government

This is the issue. Huge shortage of nurses and underinvestment, plus an unhealthy lifestyle of people in the UK, probably due to being one of the countries working the longest hours in Europe. COVID hadn't helped, but some people don't have vaccinations for a variety of reasons, not just because they are stupid in your eyes or anti-vax. To me, anti-vax means that you don't want the world to be vaccinated, not that you just don't want a COVID vaccine but are happy for the rest of the world to be vaccinated - although some people love to put a simple label on a complicated issue.

What about all of the people who refuse to manage their weight, drink heavily, don't exercise, smoke? They take a lot out of the system, overwhelm services and not everyone will be putting in what they get out. People having children - what bastards - creating more people to use our services!

I think vaccinations are a good thing BTW - but I think you are purposefully being antagonistic and divisive at a time when people are very anxious. Shameful.

I’m vaccinated. Everyone I know is vaccinated…BUT

It’s not right to force people to get vaccinated, via fines or vaccine cards or any other social pressure. I can understand why people don’t want to get vaccinated - I would not vaccinate my children with this new vaccine, although I am generally a big vaccination person (my children get all the extra vaccinations privately eg chickenpox).

It makes a lot more sense to use fines for things like smoking or being overweight, than to force people to receive a vaccination. It makes more sense to make older and proven vaccinations for children mandatory than doing this. I’m sorry for everyone who is suffering though.

@BewareTheBeardedDragon

Wouldn't it be better to just not prioritise an unvaccinated COVID case over a life saving cancer (or other urgent) surgery. Both might die as a result of a delay - why does the covid case get treated but the cancer case gets left?

Because surely cancer surgery requires a bed in ICU to be empty for after the operation, and enough nurses, plus an empty theatre

If those beds are already full with covid patients, what do you propose happens?
Eeny meany miny mo to decide which of them gets slung into the street to free up that bed for the cancer surgery?

When a covid patient either gets better, or dies, and that bed frees up, do you then give surgery to the person who was scheduled for today, or the person who was scheduled and cancelled last week?

It's a horrible situation for staff and patients, but it is unforgivable that there is SUCH a clear link between being unvaccinated and being in ICU, and surgery waiting lists are building up at a massive rate in the meantime

*If those beds are already full with covid patients, what do you propose happens?
Eeny meany miny mo to decide which of them gets slung into the street to free up that bed for the cancer surgery?

When a covid patient either gets better, or dies, and that bed frees up, do you then give surgery to the person who was scheduled for today, or the person who was scheduled and cancelled last week?*

Can they not split the beds in half? Half the beds are for covid people and if those filll up then tough luck? Half the beds are allocated for cancer etc and can continue as planned

@Justheretoaskaquestion91

*If those beds are already full with covid patients, what do you propose happens? Eeny meany miny mo to decide which of them gets slung into the street to free up that bed for the cancer surgery?

When a covid patient either gets better, or dies, and that bed frees up, do you then give surgery to the person who was scheduled for today, or the person who was scheduled and cancelled last week?*

Can they not split the beds in half? Half the beds are for covid people and if those filll up then tough luck? Half the beds are allocated for cancer etc and can continue as planned

I can see the Daily Mail sad face photos now... 'Dad dies in corridor after doctors refuse him lifesaving treatment, despite beds lying empty in fully-staffed ICU metres away from where he perished'

I think that puts doctors into an incredibly difficult moral, if not legal, position?

This was obviously the rationale behind the Nightingale hospitals, but overlooking the very crucial point that there is a finite number of medical staff, so opening up a new hospital doesn't suddenly magic up enough staff to run it

@SW1amp

It’s just such an impossible situation

In that case we need to charge cyclists, pregnant people and smokers. They all choose to need healthcare, they should factor in such costs to their choices

What kind of people get pregnant 🤔

Oh I get it. XX

Absurd way of thinking, shall we charge the obese people who can't stop eating themselves to death and then wonder how they end up with umpteen health conditions?

@Thecurliestwurly

‘I think vaccinations are a good thing BTW - but I think you are purposefully being antagonistic and divisive at a time when people are very anxious. Shameful.’

I wasn’t intending to be antagonistic or divisive, but I can see how it could have landed that way. Sorry. All too easy to get it wrong on such an emotive topic.

@RoastPotatoQueen

Absurd way of thinking, shall we charge the obese people who can't stop eating themselves to death and then wonder how they end up with umpteen health conditions?

No - but I think if a vaccine was introduced that stopped the behaviour, and easily led to weight loss, and therefore decreased disease and ultimately led to a reduction in hospitalisations you might think they ought to have it for the good of their health, and of society?

I have sympathy with you OP, but really the solution is to fund the NHS better so that we can deal with the impacts of covid without cancelling masses of surgery.

I don't think a surcharge is the way to go but I do agree that more pressure ought to be brought to bear on those who are refusing vaccines. I am in favour of vaccine passports to access everything except essential services.

@SW1amp
But when the stats are that over 90% of people in ICU with covid are unvaccinated, it is clear that the burden of covid on the NHS is coming from unvaccinated people
That figure is not correct, it is now about 35%.
fullfact.org/health/economist-vaccination-status/
"The report did say that83.7%of Covid patients admitted to hospital were unvaccinated—but this covered the period between 8 December 2020, when vaccination started, and 28 July 2021. This includes a time ofvery high hospital admissions around the new year, when few people had been vaccinated."

Yes, they should if they are unvaccinated by choice, rather than medical exception.

I dont believe the extreme sports comparisons are quite fair. Broken legs from rock climbing arent spreading to other people who are likely to die from a broken leg. Also fairly unlikely to be spending days and weeks in ICU.

@kowari

That’s not what The Times is reporting within the last couple of days:

“Between 20 per cent and 30 per cent of critical care beds in England are occupied by Covid patients and three quarters of those have not been vaccinated, according to the latest data up to July this year.
Separately, NHS England said that between July and November more than nine in 10 patients receiving the most specialist care, in which artificial lungs were used to try to save their lives, were unvaccinated.”