Surcharge for unvaccinated people needing hospital treatment for covid

[Bwix]

I’m just reading in the Times this morning how much cancer care, treatment of kidney and heart disease and organ transplants are being delayed and disrupted due to the strain on the NHS by unvaccinated patients. Of people needing the most intervention, 90% are unvaccinated.

Not all of these will be unvaccinated for medical reasons. We have had vaccines available for all adults for months now. I think it is reasonable for people to decide not to have a vaccine (just as they might want to drive fast without a seatbelt or climb a mountain face without a harness). But there should be a consequence that they face as individuals, as a result of that decision: that if they need care as a consequence of something they could have prevented, that they pick up the bill.

I’m really upset to know that friends and relatives with cancer may die as a result of their treatment being delayed, and it’s due to strains on the system that could be avoided.

@bloodywhitecat

My husband will die as a result of the delays to his treatment but I don't see how surcharges will help.

I am so sorry to read that. It is a stark reality and one I think we need to be talking about more.

I assume the OP thinks that facing the prospect of paying for care, more people will get the vaccine. It’s certainly a possibility. But whether we make people pay for care or not, if you need a hospital bed when you have Covid, you need one and no payment is going to change that.

@thepeopleversuswork you clearly don't believe the vaccines work if you think an unvaccinated person is a threat to you. FYI the omicron variant was brought into the UK by 4 fully vaccinated people.

The consequence is that they’re seriously ill though?

Cancer and heart disease can happen through poor diet, smoking, alcohol and too much sugar, even if you quit those things 10 years ago. I wouldn’t charge them either.

P.S I am vaccinated.

Definitely not. Don’t be ridiculous. Charge fat people, smokers and drinkers as well. Where would it end? There may not be a vaccine for smokers or fat people but no one is forcing them to smoke or over eat.

I’m sick of “the unvaccinated” being used all of the time. Why not just put a stamp on their foreheads? Unclean?!!

@Tootsey11

The point is that people who are unvaccinated are taking up the vast majority of beds allocated to COVID patients. Causing a huge backlog in the NHS.

This has been documented extensively in this article and others by healthcare professionals. I’m not sure why my views on vaccines are relevant?

Money grab is not the answer. People pay taxes so that they use the NHS. Do you want to start sometime that may extend to other areas that may affect people with cancer because they may have got because of being fat or smoking ? Vaccinated people are also in ICU and the new variant is affecting the double jabbed as seeing in half the cases. If you are old and with underlying conditions you may end up in UCI anyway.

@PinkiOcelotnki good idea. Smoking and drinking are already highly taxed, nice of you to suggest the unvaccinated should be also. How do you see this working?

people who are unvaccinated are taking up the vast majority of beds allocated to COVID patients. Causing a huge backlog in the NHS.

Something like 7% of all hospital beds are patients with Covid.
The bed-blocking problem is that it can't handle a 7% excess over 'normal'.
7% of patient beds did not cause the huge treatment backlog.

The huge backlog was caused by huge delays in non-emergency treatment imposed in 2020-early 2021 when vaccination wasn't possible, anyway.

There's no capacity in the system to catch up with 1 full year of delays and extra patients waiting. That lack of spare capacity is the result of 40+ years of voting decisions by British public. The whole British public should bear the costs of these decisions. You could take life savings of every single hospitalised unvaccinated Covid patient starting tomorrow -- and the waiting lists Will Not Go Down in time to help OP's loved ones.

@Porcupineintherough I didn’t say the unvaccinated should be charged. I think it’s a ridiculous idea.
Also smokers and drinkers may be charged tax at point of purchase but no one is forcing them to buy see they.
On another note, I work in a hospital and every week they publish how many COVID patients we have. Last week we had the grand total of 18. I hardly think that is going to cause a big hospital to grind to a halt, cancelling clinics and treatment for others etc. It just won’t.

Where would you draw the line, OP? Should these people also have to pay?
Smokers?
Obese people?
People who don't exercise?
People who eat an unhealthily diet?
People who drink too much alcohol?
People who drink too much coffee?
People who take part in horseriding?
People who play rugby, football and other sports where injury could be incurred?
People who fall off ladders or hurt themselves when doing DIY?
Etc
Etc

@kowari I don't think that decision was very well thought through!

@bloodywhitecat

My husband will die as a result of the delays to his treatment but I don't see how surcharges will help.

My heart goes out to you and your DH. My DH did die because of the delays. All the nhs apologies don't make a jot of difference. Even so I can't see surcharges helping at all. Better funding and management might

Where will it end?? A woman decides to have a child and has complications during the birth....should she pay? A man goes skiing and breaks his leg....should he pay? There's always the smoker/ drinker arguments.
How about the person that refuses certain heart medications and has a further heart attack - do they get a bill?
Its not just the unvaccinsted in hospital. There's plenty of double jabbed also.

@Bwix

I’m just reading in the Times this morning how much cancer care, treatment of kidney and heart disease and organ transplants are being delayed and disrupted due to the strain on the NHS by unvaccinated patients. Of people needing the most intervention, 90% are unvaccinated.

Not all of these will be unvaccinated for medical reasons. We have had vaccines available for all adults for months now. I think it is reasonable for people to decide not to have a vaccine (just as they might want to drive fast without a seatbelt or climb a mountain face without a harness). But there should be a consequence that they face as individuals, as a result of that decision: that if they need care as a consequence of something they could have prevented, that they pick up the bill.

I’m really upset to know that friends and relatives with cancer may die as a result of their treatment being delayed, and it’s due to strains on the system that could be avoided.

So I have a problem with targeting the 'so call unvaccinated'. Why... because of how we classify 'unvaccinated'. Did you know that unless you are post 2 weeks after your 2nd jab you will be classed as unvaccinated. There was also talk of including the Booster within the realms of being 'fully vaccinated' so anything less classifies you as Unvaccinated. The Booster part has not come to pass yet but I'm sure it will. Statistics gather the information the 'want' to measure and not necessarily the information they 'need' to make all the information transparent. Missing information IMO contributes much to misinformation by not bringing clarity to the message. This totally pisses me off. Welcome to the world of segregation, isolation, judgement, censorship and restrictions of liberties for not taking a medical intervention , for whatever reason. I know Doctors, Nurses, Policemen, Firemen and many others that are not jabbed for various reasons. Are they saying that these people who put their lives on the line for us should be charged for treatment? If they are saying yes, then they really should include those who are obese because they eat too much, those who smoke, those who don't exercise or take care of their bodies because they are lazy or just don't care enough to.... because Covid loves these groups of people and Science has confirmed this time and time again through reports on published medical websites. People in glass houses should really thing about throwing those stones. If the glass house has mirrors it may help them reflect better before they judge. Had I taken up the repeated offer to go and get vaccinated it would have probably killed me, why? Because they 'failed' to check my FAMILY medical history of a severe autoimmune disease which is a blood clotting disorder. Luckily my gut told me to be hesitant so I contacted my Doctor, after many invites to vaccinate. My Doctor could not guarantee my safety so didn't recommend it. Many people have a family history that would make their risk vs benefits not worth it. Some people don't know their family medical history. One size does not fit all, it never will. Until we address this, I don't think we should be pointing the finger of blame. The Government decided how the NHS should conduct itself during this Pandemic. The excessively long lists and avoidable deaths will only help in pushing treatment into the Private Sector, which was always going to happen. Health insurance is going to be a normal part of out future in the UK. People have to check the small print, as conditions Covid will likely be excluded. Treatment on the other hand should be much quicker.

People who smoke, drink and eat too much already pay a surcharge in taxes on those products.

Just no.

YABU. And I say that as someone who cannot fathom, other than for legitimate medical reasons, why someone wouldn't have the vaccine.

Smokers pay for their costs via tax on cigarettes. Couldn't we do the same with unvaccinated people and charge them all? You could start off by taking a deduction from state pensions, as the over 65s are still the age group very much most likely to need hospital care if unvaccinated. Much fairer and more practical to tax all than to charge those unfortunate enough to have to go to hospital.

Refusing a vaccine harms everyone you come into contact with basically

This isn’t actually true though, is it? If the vaccine prevented people from catching it then great but it absolutely doesn’t, it only lessens your personal chance of severe illness. I have covid right now, I had my second vaccine 3 months ago. I’m not sick at all, only ‘symptom’ is actually a blocked nose which supposedly isn’t a symptom of covid but I tested because my DD was positive. I’d still be a risk to others if I went out and mixed with them now because I wouldn’t have tested had my 10 year old not had symptoms and tested positive. So an unvaccinated person catching and spreading covid is no more dangerous than a vaccinated person doing so like me. Being unvaccinated is only really a risk to you, not those around you.

The NHS don’t judge people based on their personal choices, they provide access to healthcare for all and are supposed to remain impartial and unbiased.

@insancerre

The strain on the nhs is from underfunding by the government

It’s not just because of this. It’s also because they run such a antiquated creaking system that needs hauling into the 21st century but the unions won’t let them. There is a lot that can be done to save costs and reinvest into the system

Just look at examples hundreds to replace a blind, a nurse got one for a tenner and put it up themselves, unions not happy. Pounds to,purchase paracetamol you can buy much cheaper elsewhere but tied into a ridiculous contract.

The whole system needs sorting, not money thrown at it

@PinkiOcelot

Definitely not. Don’t be ridiculous. Charge fat people, smokers and drinkers as well. Where would it end? There may not be a vaccine for smokers or fat people but no one is forcing them to smoke or over eat.

I’m sick of “the unvaccinated” being used all of the time. Why not just put a stamp on their foreheads? Unclean?!!

It's such a complex thing. During lockdowns, people's healthy coping mechanisms - fresh air, human connection, exercise, nature were severely curtailed and replaced by fear and stress, food, alcohol, the sofa and so on. Lots of people have got to this point carrying more weight, much less fit and going into winter less healthy than they might have been.

An example is an elderly relative who now has limited mobility because he couldn't continue with his routine of popping to the shops as benches had all been removed, so he had nowhere to rest.

Healthy lifestyle advice is notoriously poor. I fixed several health complaints through dietry changes, plus a few supplements in the past but it took loads of reading, talking to people, then committing to changes and having faith they might work. None of this suggested by my GP who could only offer a pill that wasn't going to fix the route cause and risked worrying side effects.

I know it's very possible to reverse some diabetes in this way, that plus obesity plus age being big risk factors for covid mortality. There's only one of those that people can't do anything to improve, but there's no support and people's mental health is rock bottom, so I can understand that for many people it's just not possible.

The vaccine is not without risks. Those risks may be rare but have hit close to home. People's own experience will often carry more weight than data. The Peele who have been harmed after being brushed under the carpet. More transparency might just encourage more trust and take-up than threats.

In addition, the govt have had two years to strengthen the NHS and what have they done with it? Demoralising the 10 percent of workers who are concerned about the vaccine who risk losing their job in Spring after helping it through another challenging winter.
Causing a reduction in beds in care homes/less domiciliary care capacity, meaning elderly people are unnecessarily bed blocking in hospitals too.

The NHS treats on the basis of need with a maximum cost they'll pay per year of healthy life. Once you've passed these hurdles you get free care.

I don't understand why people want to rip up the social contract over covid and start the slope of charging for treatment especially seeing the state of social care.

The NHS will treat a murderer who gets injured killing someone for free and you want people who aren't vaccinated against a single disease to be the exception? That's the priority? Give your head a wobble

@Ponoka7

Most cancers are caused by lifestyle factors, or the effectiveness of treatment offered. Likewise lots of other conditions. So why punish one set of people and not others? The taxation issue has been mentioned. So that makes this a financial decision. Firstly we have to remember that the reason why things are so bad is a lack of investment for the past eleven years. Then we should weigh up everyone who we spend money on. Many would call for the death sentence before refusing to fund treatment. There definitely should be 'whataboutory' applied here.

Are they? Neither of my cancers are lifestyle cancers, nor is my brothers lung cancer or my sisters ovarian cancer. It's genetics. We know this as we've gone through all the testing.

It's a shit mean-spirited ill-considered idea that in any case could never work - or at least not until the Tories have managed to privatise the NHS.

Just look at examples hundreds to replace a blind, a nurse got one for a tenner and put it up themselves, unions not happy

Have you got a link to this story or is it made up bollocks?

Pounds to,purchase paracetamol you can buy much cheaper elsewhere but tied into a ridiculous contract.
And that has to do with unions how, exactly?