Page 4 | Surcharge for unvaccinated people needing hospital treatment for covid

Iggly · 05/12/2021 11:55

@insancerre

The strain on the nhs is from underfunding by the government

^this a million fucking times

BigWoollyJumpers · 05/12/2021 11:56

No, because it would completely undermine the core principle of the NHS, which is that it is free at the point of need

Lets change it then. This principle was initiated in 1948 for goodness sake. Times have changed, population needs have changed, and grown, we treat everything, even old age. Something has to change, why are we so wedded to something that is now pushing on for 100 years old? Most other countries have charges in one form or another, it's time we dragged the NHS kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

Iggly · 05/12/2021 11:57

The whole system needs sorting, not money thrown at it

It doesn’t need a huge overhaul. It needs politicians to back off, stop meddling and let health experts do their job. If they say it needs funding, they should be listened to.

SnappedAndFarted18 · 05/12/2021 11:59

Since these vaccines have been released I’ve seen a lot of people with the same views as you & I really don’t get this way of thinking OP, the vaccines are a choice nobody should be forced into taking any vaccine(s) they don’t feel is right for them & on that same note they shouldn’t be penalised for their choice either !! The strain on the NHS is from years of government underfunding & cuts it’s nothing to do with people choosing not to be vaccinated. Honestly I really can’t understand why some (not all) vaccinated people who have made their choice to be vaccinated just cannot accept that not everybody wants to put that in their body & just respect their decision fgs when will this judgement end !!

Iggly · 05/12/2021 12:03

@BigWoollyJumpers

No, because it would completely undermine the core principle of the NHS, which is that it is free at the point of need

Lets change it then. This principle was initiated in 1948 for goodness sake. Times have changed, population needs have changed, and grown, we treat everything, even old age. Something has to change, why are we so wedded to something that is now pushing on for 100 years old? Most other countries have charges in one form or another, it's time we dragged the NHS kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

Principles don’t have to be time bound. Principles don’t have to go out of date. It’s not like the latest iPhone.

The principle is founded on the idea of helping everyone regardless of ability to pay. Any move away from that principle is to benefit those who stand to make a profit from healthcare.

Oberonsdream · 05/12/2021 12:07

What a goading thread. OP get a grip and a life. I know 4 people with cancer in different parts of the country who have had no delays for treatment. 2 of them have lung cancer (heavy smoker) and liver cancer (alcoholic) 2/4 have cancer due to lifestyle choices much like you are saying about not having the covid vaccine. Which isn't a lifestyle choice for all.

BigWoollyJumpers · 05/12/2021 12:13

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/09/which-country-has-worlds-best-healthcare-system-this-is-the-nhs

Old article - but nicely summarised. Bottom line, our system is unique and not performing well.

Maverickess · 05/12/2021 12:14

The flaw in that suggestion is that we had to shut the country down and restrict access to NHS services when covid hit before vaccines because the NHS wouldn't have coped.
The NHS wouldn't have coped because they don't have enough resources, staff and money and what they do have is being managed over a cliff.
The NHS isn't in the shit solely because of unvaccinated patients, it's been teetering on the brink for years.

Lilifer · 05/12/2021 12:15

@Bwix

I’m just reading in the Times this morning how much cancer care, treatment of kidney and heart disease and organ transplants are being delayed and disrupted due to the strain on the NHS by unvaccinated patients. Of people needing the most intervention, 90% are unvaccinated.

Not all of these will be unvaccinated for medical reasons. We have had vaccines available for all adults for months now. I think it is reasonable for people to decide not to have a vaccine (just as they might want to drive fast without a seatbelt or climb a mountain face without a harness). But there should be a consequence that they face as individuals, as a result of that decision: that if they need care as a consequence of something they could have prevented, that they pick up the bill.

I’m really upset to know that friends and relatives with cancer may die as a result of their treatment being delayed, and it’s due to strains on the system that could be avoided.

I think it's interesting to see how people have been led to blame the unvaccinated for the hospital crisis now rather than the systemic problems within the NHS, and the failure of successive governments to address this and of course the folk who voted those governments in despite those failures. The NHS has been a winter basket case for decades but now it's ok because we can blame the unvaccinated for that.

Lilifer · 05/12/2021 12:16

@Maverickess

The flaw in that suggestion is that we had to shut the country down and restrict access to NHS services when covid hit before vaccines because the NHS wouldn't have coped. The NHS wouldn't have coped because they don't have enough resources, staff and money and what they do have is being managed over a cliff. The NHS isn't in the shit solely because of unvaccinated patients, it's been teetering on the brink for years.

Snap! I couldn't agree more 👏🏻

Yogaandcocoa · 05/12/2021 12:17

So what about people with cancer who are obese or smokers, shall we charge them too?

This is what I was going to say

girlmom21 · 05/12/2021 12:18

@Iggly

The whole system needs sorting, not money thrown at it

It doesn’t need a huge overhaul. It needs politicians to back off, stop meddling and let health experts do their job. If they say it needs funding, they should be listened to.

How much money do you keep throwing at a system before it starts to work? Governments have given the system the money they ask for and they just ask for more.

RubyTuesday70 · 05/12/2021 12:19

Comments like this really piss me off. I am diabetic, 1st vaccine was fine. 2nd vaccine made me horribly ill..... I had nearly 12 weeks of chronic headaches (the sort where you can't bear light and are sick with), joint pain that actually made me think I needed a hip replacement and I was barely able to function for weeks let alone work. Running my own business, it was a nightmare. I couldn't even see a Dr about it and was fobbed off constantly. I even thought I was going mad at one point.

You can't force anyone to be vaccinated. And it's horribly patronising and smug to look down on anyone who refuses it.

MaxNormal · 05/12/2021 12:23

Surcharge for obesity too then. A huge amount of NHS resources are spent on lifestyle related conditions.

SnappedAndFarted18 · 05/12/2021 12:27

@RubyTuesday70

Comments like this really piss me off. I am diabetic, 1st vaccine was fine. 2nd vaccine made me horribly ill..... I had nearly 12 weeks of chronic headaches (the sort where you can't bear light and are sick with), joint pain that actually made me think I needed a hip replacement and I was barely able to function for weeks let alone work. Running my own business, it was a nightmare. I couldn't even see a Dr about it and was fobbed off constantly. I even thought I was going mad at one point.

You can't force anyone to be vaccinated. And it's horribly patronising and smug to look down on anyone who refuses it.

I’m so sorry to hear you went through that unfortunately there’s quite a lot of people experiencing this & quite a few other serious side effects of the vaccines & the boosters also unfortunately they don’t seem to be heard/reported on 😞 I hope you’re feeling better now xx

SweetBabyCheeses99 · 05/12/2021 12:32

It’s an interesting concept…if you decide to get actual private health insurance then your policy is an individualised price based on a myriad of different variables such as your family history, smoking status, employment, alcohol consumption, age, even how often you exercise.
These algorithms are calculated by actuarial scientists. If we are going to suggest introducing this concept in the NHS then obviously you couldn’t just do it for one vaccine (or 2,3,4 “boosters” etc). You’d have to consider a citizens entire lifestyle as above and calculate how much they are likely to cost the NHS.
I think then we would soon see that it’s not covid vaccination status that is causing the NHS “problems.”

FreedomFaith · 05/12/2021 12:35

@cupcakedaisy

What about people who choose to smoke, drink, eat junk food, risky sports, driving too fast, etc - are we going to charge them too?

Technically we could, or even prioritise others over them.

Like for cancer, it's not like anyone can cause cancer in themselves. Even some smokers never get lung cancer. Cancer is an unfortunate thing that happens. So those who are unvaccinated and have covid don't get preferential treatment over someone who has cancer and needs life saving treatment. They have to wait. They could have got vaccinated and that would have hopefully made the effects less. If they were vaccinated, and still struggling to breathe, then they get preferential treatment over the cancer treatment as the covid patient is likely to die sooner without treatment.

Will never happen of course. Most of the suggestions we come up with will never happen. People are still paying taxes after all, so the current definition of the NHS is that they still get treatment no matter what.

GeorgiaMcGraw · 05/12/2021 12:36

As many have pointed out, OP's idea should also mean restricting healthcare for anybody who makes unhealthy choices. Not a world I'd want to live in, and it would no longer be universal healthcare. Also, the hospitals are not struggling due to unvaccinated. 80% of UK has had 2 jabs, so even more have had 1 and are likely to have more in future. Hospitalisations are down. Your surcharge idea has very little basis in reality, and much more basis in your desire to finger point and feel superior.

Iggly · 05/12/2021 12:39

How much money do you keep throwing at a system before it starts to work? Governments have given the system the money they ask for and they just ask for more

You are wrong. Completely wrong.

The nhs has been underfunded for years and years. As has adult social care which is intrinsically linked to the nhs. In fact, adult social care has been disgustingly underfunded by cuts to local authorities.

It’s very difficult to expect a system like the health and social care sector to do well without enough money.

BigYellowHat · 05/12/2021 12:41

I think there should be some consequence but I’ve still ticked YABU because at the end of the day it’s personal choice. Most people are fully paid up through NI anyway so what about that?

Iggly · 05/12/2021 12:45

@BigYellowHat

I think there should be some consequence but I’ve still ticked YABU because at the end of the day it’s personal choice. Most people are fully paid up through NI anyway so what about that?

National insurance doesn’t go directly to the nhs 🧐🤨

millymolls · 05/12/2021 12:46

Well I’d put a surcharge on all obese people ( biggest drain on nhs resources statistically )
All smokers
All drinkers
Anyone who hasnt paid as much tax and ni as I have

Etc

Nhs is terribly over consumed rather than under funded. Throwing endless pots of money won’t solve it ever

Libertaire · 05/12/2021 12:48

A friend of mine broke his wrist when he fell off his bike last week. Should he have to pay for treatment?

In my view, the answer to that question is not an automatic, unthinking ‘of course not’. It is becoming clear that universal, unlimited healthcare which is completely free for all at the point of use and delivered by a monolithic, wasteful, sclerotic state bureaucracy is unsustainable. Britain needs to look at other countries who do it better, and learn from them. Germany and Israel which have hybrid public / private systems combined with universal insurance would be a good place to start.

Ghoulette · 05/12/2021 12:50

@PrivateHall

So what about people with cancer who are obese or smokers, shall we charge them too?

Cancer, no. don't be ridiculous. They can't make an effort to quit cancer or go on a diet to "lose" cancer.

tigger1001 · 05/12/2021 12:50

Simply put no.

Our healthcare is free at the point of treatment without caveats. Plenty people do things that put them in hospital. Smokers, drinkers, obesity, people do high risk sports. We treat them on a needs basis and not on a well you are at fault basis.

The issues within the health service were there before covid. Flu had an impact every year on health care, yet we didn't criticise these who were offered vaccines and didn't take them up.