Aibu to be horrified at the thought of mandatory vaccinations

[TracyLords]

I’m not anti vax. I’ve had my jabs and will get booster this week.

There have been countries in the EU insisting on mandatory vaccination: this concerns me: surely it is up to the individual to decide to get vaccinated (or otherwise)

@EnglishMuffins

Double vaxxed here. Debating the booster. Absolutely against mandatory vaccines. I do not want to live in a society where it is punishable by law to not be injected with , what is still, a trial vaccine.

No, it's not.

The approved vaccines have gone through exactly the same processes as any other medicine.

Here you go, educate yourself:

www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/overview/public-health-threats/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/treatments-vaccines/vaccines-covid-19/covid-19-vaccines-development-evaluation-approval-monitoring

[quote thepeopleversuswork]@MorningStarling

Great post.

As a general principle I am unhappy with the idea of mandatory vaccination but it’s true that the state does have the power to compel people to do things to protect overall population health: banning smoking in pubs is a good example.

Ultimately it comes down to whether you believe individuals have a right to do something which is potentially harmful to society at large.

In this instance I don’t believe that people’s right to avoid the vaccines for their own use trumps the right of our community not to be stuck in this endless cycle.

The “my body my choice” argument has been massively twisted to fit an anti science, anti intellectual agenda here.[/quote]
Banning smoking in a public place is nowhere near in the same level as forcing someone to have a medical procedure.

@NollaigNollaig

I don’t get this being horrified. We’re in a middle of a once in a lifetime pandemic. The world has been a total shit show for the past two years and we’re still going round in circles.

It’s a fact that vaccines massively reduce hospitalisation. Would you prefer mandatory vaccines or never returning to life as we know it?

We’re not in a normal situation here. What do you think the world should be doing to try stop this? Keep us all locked down? Overwhelm hospitals and sod who dies? There are no good options. For me taking a safe vaccine is the best option if it gets us back to normal.

Who said there can’t be another pandemic within our lifetime? The world is overpopulated, it’s easy for viruses and diseases to spread.

How about mandatory restrictions and mandatory lockdowns? because I am pretty fed up with these....

If it becomes clear that the minority who don't want the vaccine are holding the fight against Covid back then something will have to be done for the majority to be able to get back to normal.

Whether that is mandatory vaccine or restrictions on what they can and can't do is another matter but we can't let the anti-vaccine nutters ruins it for everyone else.

YANBU. If they're going to make it compulsory they need to remove the indemnity from liability of the vaccine manufacturers. Death is a possible outcome, probably much more frequently than anyone will admit to. When people experience side effects, sometimes serious ones, it is almost impossible for anyone to admit it is because of the vaccine, mostly I've heard of doctors just shrugging and saying 'we'll never know'.

On the compulsory smallpox vaccine:

The vaccine was invented in 1796.
It was made available to everyone in Britain free of charge in 1840.
The first bit of legislation making it compulsory was 1853, but the fine involved was very small and there were lots of ways for parents to evade it. It also didn't apply to adults, only infants, who were supposed to be vaccinated by the age of 3 months.
In 1867 the penalties became much harsher and it was much more actively enforced. There was a lot of opposition to this.
By the 1890s there was a 'conscience clause' so that parents who thought it might harm their child could opt out.

It's an interesting bit of history, but a totally different situation from a new vaccine (plus an unknown number of boosters) being mandated for the adult population. The smallpox vaccine was more an issue of parental choice/rights than bodily autonomy, as infants can't really have that.

[quote NollaigNollaig]@SheikhMaraca unfortunately a grown up conversation isn’t going to stop hospitals being overwhelmed. Unless you’re saying the new normal is overwhelmed hospitals, delayed cancer diagnosis and treatment, delayed children’s procedures and other elective procedures? Or do you propose anyone with covid be left to die at home without medical assistance so the rest of the health system can function?

Both sound a lot scarier to me as a new normal than mandatory vaccination.

It’s not new any more. Billions of people have had the vaccine. And for the millionth time there aren’t long time side effects from vaccines.[/quote]
You’re just making a straw man.

People can make the choice to die at home with palliative care in place.

It is utterly unconscionable for 40 year olds to be dying from preventable causes while hospitals are full of octogenarians who would most likely have died of other causes within a year anyway.

…and by definition, we cannot know the long-term side effects of a brand new vaccine.

I think two things. The first is that the places who have made it mandatory have tried other options first which have failed and their take up rate has been miniscule. I may not like what they have done but i can see why they have done it and why it won't be likely to be needful in the UK
Point two is that yes people should still be able to decide for themselves whether or not to accept the vaccine....but as MN so often says, choices have consequences and those consequences may be losing your job or limiting your lifestyle. And I am fine with that.

@JaninaDuszejko

Making vaccines mandatory doesn't work. If you want to increase vaccination rates (and we already have high acceptance of vaccines in the UK) then you have to engage with the reasons for people not getting vaccinated. There has been a lot of work done in the populations that were hesitant about polio vaccination (and before that smallpox) that can be learnt from (hint: making vaccines mandatory hardens the anti-vax viewpoint). You need to make vaccines accessible (even on this thread people are saying they haven't had a jab they are entitled to and want because of the accessibility of the vaccines, they aren't anti-vaxers but they are not vaccinated), and you need to address any concerns.

Telling people they are wrong does not change minds and being allowed to refuse medical treatment is a right we should not give up lightly.

This.

The UK has a good take-up over vaccines and making them mandatory to deal with a low proportion of hestitant or anti-vaxx people (there is a difference!) would undermine confidence in other established vaccination programmes. Isolating people from participation in society is perfect priming to make them more susceptible to buying into actual anti-vaxx propaganda.

Vaccination is not risk-free although favourable in a risk-benefit analysis and it is wrong to force/ coerce people into an unwanted procedure with a potential for harm. Does the state then claim liability for any injuries sustained by the decision they imposed?

As useful as these vaccines are in reducing serious illnesses and cases, they do not eliminate the risk of either and it's a particularly poor choice of vaccine to mandate.

Bodily autonomy is a fragile right and not respected through the world. Some US states have revoked rights of women in favour of the rights of unborn fetuses, many parts of the world favour pregnant women dying over abortion. In China, the state has performed sterilisations without consent because of their population policies. Keep extending the logic and you can start arguments that you can save NHS money by sterilising women during cesareans because all subsequent pregnancies are automatically deemed high risk.
As another pp stated, women indeed have a lot more to lose by the loss of autonomy vs the state in the name of The Greater Good.

While I'm not enthused, I will have a booster, but it should not be mandatory.

@BogRollBOGOF superb post 👏

Thank you @BogRollBOGOF - finally some sense!

@TracyLords

I’m not anti vax. I’ve had my jabs and will get booster this week.

There have been countries in the EU insisting on mandatory vaccination: this concerns me: surely it is up to the individual to decide to get vaccinated (or otherwise)

Do you wear a seat belt in a car?

If your drive do you/would you?

Observe the speed limits?

Have your car MOTd?

Have your car insured?

It would be the thin end of the wedge.

What other things could be mandated? On the grounds that they have a negative impact on other people or are bad for us?

Abortion.
Epidural in labour.
2 kidneys (when you only need 1).
Obesity.

Sound far fetched? So did mandatory vaccination 12 months ago.

I’m vaccinated but haven’t had booster and now undecided, given they are bringing it forward and my worry is we will be expected to have one every 3 months. Also It effected my periods.. so what else has it effected?!

My husband isn’t vaccinated and won’t be. I was upset initially but respect his decision. He won’t fly so it won’t effect us travelling luckily as we would holiday in this country. However if it becomes mandatory to live a normal life and risks the possibility of a fine or imprisonment.. I don’t know how I will feel. What if he had the vaccine and died? Do we get compensation because he was forced to have it?! Of course if he died, money means bugger all but you see my point….

I do think you should be forced but if you end up in hospital with covid you should pay for your care or at least a decent chunk of it.

Unless of course you have a medical certificate. If it got to that I'd expect a doctor to be made to give out medical certification. Not just my mate John from the white horse says they contain 5G.

I think it's hideous.

@echt
You're significantly less likely to experience any lasting damage from coming into contact with an unvaccinated person with covid (especially if you're vaccinated yourself) than you are coming into contact with the front-end of a speeding car with faulty brakes.
I think this is generally known as a cost-benefit analysis.

Don't think that should have read.

MN please get a bloody edit button

[quote YungWaffle]@echt
You're significantly less likely to experience any lasting damage from coming into contact with an unvaccinated person with covid (especially if you're vaccinated yourself) than you are coming into contact with the front-end of a speeding car with faulty brakes.
I think this is generally known as a cost-benefit analysis.[/quote]
It's the same principle of being legally complied to do something.

@HeartsAndClubs

There are plenty of countries you can’t travel to without having had certain vaccinations. Plenty of jobs where certain vaccinations are compulsory.

I’ve been vaccinated so it doesn’t affect me.

Interesting that there are a lot of people here who believe that MMR should be compulsory or that children should not be allowed a school place if they haven’t had it, yet don’t agree with the same here.

Personally I have no sympathy with anyone who loses their job over the vaccine. No-one is losing their job, they’re making a choice to no longer be in that job because the terms have changed. If you choose not to have the vaccine then fine, but if your employer makes it mandatory for you to be in that job you have two choices. You either have the vaccine or you leave.

The big difference of course is that you choose to go to those countries. You choose to work in a job that requires certain vaccinations.

@whenwillthemadnessend

Don't think that should have read.

MN please get a bloody edit button

I would also like an edit button! I can't agree with your comment about unvaccinated paying extra for health care though as there are many other users of the health service who are there because of their arguably poor choices (i.e.drug takers/smokers/obese/lovers of extreme sports etc). Why are you only targetting unvaccinated people, considering many will have paid money in taxes for the NHS throughout their adult life?

@echt
They are different in terms of risk and the extent of violation of our autonomy. Yes, we are compelled by the state to behave in certain ways, but a line is generally drawn at invasive medical procedures for a good reason.

Yanbu. We don't force convicted rapists to be castrated, why would innocent people be forced to have a vaccination against their will?

I've had the vaccines and then caught Covid pretty badly. I'm not going to have any more that may or may not work. The booster isn't even adapted for delta or Omicron. I'm not anti val but I'm anti big pharma !