To be fed up with the lazy graduates I work with....

[H0bnob]

And I say this as an early 20s recent graduate myself! So many young people both in my immediate team and within my department seem to have such a shocking attitude to work I'm finding it really grating. Most of these people have just finished there degree/masters and have never had to work before now and the attitude it just shocking!

To add to this, everyone seems to have anxiety and depression to some degree. I am absolutely NOT dismissing mental health issues and having lived with several i know how debilitating they can be....but to use it as an excuse to get out of everything is just taking the piss....being too lazy to do your job is not the same thing as being depressed, grow up for Christ's sake and take some responsibility.

One of my colleagues (same age as me) has had almost 20 sick days in the last 6 months for mental health...and yet goes out drinking and taking drugs every weekend without failure. When said colleague is in they also do nothing but sit on their phone and complain about being bored and tired. My managers seem reluctant to do anything too with the worry of accidental discrimination and so the rest of us are forced to continuously pick up the slack. Its really doing my head in now, am I being hugely intolerant?? Fully prepared to be told I I as obviously you never know what's going on behind the scenes but christ this is relentless! Apologies this has turned into a proper rant im just so frustrated by society at the minute.

20 years into my career, with the benefit of hindsight I now realise I should have been concentrating more on MY career rather than worrying about other people I worked with and their behaviour. It’s so easy to get dragged into the minutiae at work and lose sight of the bigger picture, but it’s worth strategically thinking about how best to protect yourself (ie as previous posters have said, being clear about your capacity to take on additional work with your line manager). This will allow you the time/ space to work on higher impact/ profile work that will get you further. In my experience, women are more likely to get bogged down and held back.

If this resonates with you, I highly recommend checking out the book How Women Rise (assuming you’re a woman!). I wish I’d read this book or got similar advice early in my career. Also the squiggly career podcast is very good for women.

@Wheresmywoolyjumpers Wow, this speaks volumes:

after 20 years in MH I did not expect to end up helping so many young people learn lessons that their parents should have taught them.

Thanks, this has made me think about how I model resilience with my DC. My KS1 child’s teacher said she’s never heard little kids use the word anxiety so much. She wondered if they have been listening to parents talk about their MH during lockdown. We need to be so careful about how we talk about MH in front of children, so that we outline the difference between normal human emotions and what mental health conditions.

I agree but think it is also about tolerating boredom, discomfort and fear. And this is up to the parents and starts young - when your little one can't do something you keep encouraging them rather than doing it for them. If they fail something at school, unless it is totally outrageous, you ask them what they are going to do to pass next time. I remember getting my first job as soon as I was legally allowed to work - I went into all the shops in my little town until I found one which was hiring. I was terrified and embarrassed to ask and desperately uncomfortable. And scared on my first day. How proud I was when got a job. And even more when I learned that my (undemonstrative grandpa) had said he was proud of me for doing it. Over protective parents damage their kids so much by preventing them from having these experiences.

I do agree with this.

There are so many threads on here where parents are encouraged to "phone 101 and report it to the police" or to march into the school to sort out some minor issue or to speak to the parent of their dc's friend because of some fall out or to report it to OFSTED as soon as there is a disagreement with the school. Before we get on to the ludicrous number of times people advise posters to leave their husband or longstanding partner over something that can almost always be worked through.

@1967buglet

I’m not sure why, but the past five years teaching university has been like this…loads of MH issues, and we of course have had to accommodate (and gladly, because the vast vast majority are quite genuine). I acknowledge there are a few that may be taking the piss, but there have been increased numbers of student suicides, and there is some real suffering out there. It is a difficult situation, and COVID didn’t help. I guess I would ask us all to think about growing up in a recession with housing prices out of reach, going to uni in a pandemic, and starting a first job in a pandemic. It isn’t great for young people today.

I also teach in a university and whilst I’d agree that we ought to be compassionate given all the challenges faced by the current generation of undergrads/grads, I’m also somewhat sympathetic to OP’s complaints. And honestly, I worry that we in HE are partly responsible. Some MH problems are real and need treatment. No question. But I worry that in our (mostly laudable) eagerness to ensure that all those who need that help get it, we’re increasingly pathologising perfectly normal emotional experiences and persuading young people that they are sick and incapable when actually they’re not. People don’t build confidence and resilience if they’re told that being a bit worried about an essay is a symptom of GAD and that they need a long extension and CBT, they do it by facing their fear, writing the essay for the deadline, and learning that yes, they can do it, and no, the world won’t end if this particular piece of work is a bit below their usual standard. As it is, we’re pushing a lot of students out into the workforce who consider themselves fragile and helpless and who think it’s anyone’s responsibility but theirs to address these problems. This is not good for them, never mind their bosses and colleagues. I really worry about it.

[quote honeylulu]@PrincessPaws
I agree wholeheartedly with the substance of your post.
I would just demur that "anxiety" itself is not a disorder but an entirely normal feeling in circumstances that provoke it. It is simply a state of feeling anxious (worried, agitated etc) It does not mean the same as an anxiety disorder. The trouble is that this error is common and many people seize on the word "anxiety" to imply that they have an actual anxiety disorder.

I am anxious/ have anxiety (genuinely) at times but I am confident that I do not have an anxiety disorder. I just get worried and stressed when I have challenges or time pressures with no obvious outlet.[/quote]
As someone who was diagnosed with and medicated for GAD as a teen (a LONG time ago now) I know exactly what you mean, however 'anxiety' has very much entered the lexicon and is now freely used for everything from feeling a bit worried to an actual diagnosed and treated anxiety disorder - what you are saying is exactly my point, anxiety is used for anything worrying or uncomfortable. But IME an awful lot of young people will take an uncomfortable experience and cling on, then talking about their (often self diagnosed) 'illness', posting memes about anxiety etc

Agreed.

50% of our employees are recent grads (21-26). Every single one of them works their arse off and is lovely to be around.

But then we also create a workplace environment where being hardworking is rewarded and they're not treated like shit... having worked in the public sector as a graduate I reckon that's probably half the problem here!

@scarpa

Agreed.

50% of our employees are recent grads (21-26). Every single one of them works their arse off and is lovely to be around.

But then we also create a workplace environment where being hardworking is rewarded and they're not treated like shit... having worked in the public sector as a graduate I reckon that's probably half the problem here!

Oop, my post was in reply to a PP who said the young people on graduate law schemes they know work really hard.

Wow great post @Confuciusornis you hit the nail on the head.

Although the intention may come from a place of kindness, the result is not so kind to many graduates. Unintended consequences and all that.

@Babybooboodedoo - how scary to hear little children are talking like this. I don't think I had every heard of anxiety at that age.

@Kite22 - yes I think you are on to something. Sometimes kids have to sort things out themselves.

@Confuciusornis- your post made so much sense to me. Pathologizing people, or letting them pathologize themselves ultimately hurts them. Instead of 'I can't do this' we should be encouraging children and young people to ask themselves 'how can I do this?'. And for the people in these age groups who have not gone down to route of over sensitivity to emotions, what must life be like? No wonder OP (and many others) are so frustrated.

Does one have to wind up hospitalised before their mental health problems "count"?

If not, when do they count?

I appreciate there is a discussion here about a lack of perceived resilience and responsibility among some young people, but some of the chat also seems to be leaning towards mental health stigma, and implying that mental health problems are typically just made up by the work-shy, rather than genuine.

FWIW, it took me years to work up the courage to finally treat my shitty mental health. I didn't know what to expect until a kind colleague of mine explained exactly how the treatment process worked, step by step. Until then, I was petrified that admitting I regularly wrestled with suicidal ideation would land me ... in a hospital (my impressions of which were informed by Requiem for a Dream and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest).

My pre-diagnosis anxiety drove me to work to the point of burnout. After burnout came decision paralysis. In both cases, the response was driven by the belief that my work couldn't possibly be good enough.

My colleagues thought the former was great: I was a performer. They thought the latter was not so great: now I was no longer performing. The colleague who took the time to ask if I was okay, and probably helped save my life, worked in a completely different department. The colleagues in my own department who worked with me every day, and my managers, only had criticism for me.

If your colleagues are citing their mental health as a reason they're not working to your standards, why don't you try asking them if they're ok? It doesn't have to be hospital-worthy for it to count.

@Preech. Great post. What I have taken from this thread is that unless you have been diagnosed with a anxiety disorder which is somehow worse than anxiety, not sure why, then basically you are not resilient, therefore your fault. I don't actually think attitudes towards mental health have moved on very much at all. That's the trouble with the world now, too little understanding and too many people deciding whether your problems are worthy or not. Will leave it there as it just makes me really angry.

At my workplace the new thing is to get a doctors note for a ridiculous accommodation that basically ensures you will be paid to not do the job you were hired for.

That said..."we also create a workplace environment where being hardworking is rewarded and they're not treated like shit... having worked in the public sector as a graduate I reckon that's probably half the problem here!"

I'd have to agree with this too. Staff are treated to endless staffing crisis, relatively high stress, low reward, zero respect positions with overtime. So truthfully the organization probably deserves it though ones poor coworkers definitely do not.

This is why I prefer both to be a contractor & to manage a team of contractors, over permanent staff every time.
If you don't turn up, you don't get paid. If you don't perform you won't get renewed and you are likely to be released early.

As a manager it means that I can focus on the work that needs to be done, rather than an endless list of pointless appraisals, assessment meetings, return to work meetings etc.

IIn my experience it's only ever permanent staff who ever have long term illness issues that seriously impact their work. It's amazing how rarely contractors get ill.

I used to work for a charity helping people with debt and if you asked me what was the one common trait they all had, I would say it was poor parenting. They had not been given the tools in life to deal with money or had any resilience built.

@icelolly12

Every generation X thinks they are going to be either a social media star or the next Steve Jobs/Elon Musk. Reality hits hard...

Gen x are now between 40 and 55 so I think you've got that wrong!

Ha ha - bit late for me to be a social media star

Ime lazy arses are all ages and everywhere. I think the public sector attracts attention because it is a massive organisation with plenty of places to hide. Likewise large private sector companies with myriad departments.

The laziest person I know scooted along for years in a large private company, always off sick for spurious reasons. When the “stress” became a thing - bullseye. This is someone who was unable to go to work because of “commuting agoraphobia”. So they didn’t actually suffer if they were on a plane/train going for a day out/holiday. Then they had a telephone phobia so could not be contacted at home except via email. Needless to say their internet connection was very dodgy… In the end they received a huge payoff. Not fair!

Most recent graduates are not millennials. They are younger than that.

I think a lot of this thread is moaning that someone 20 years younger than you doesn't have the same experience. Well of course they don't.

That said, I have to say I have had queries from colleagues and clients and wondered where common sense has gone as I would have known the answer at 25, but I also wonder whether there is greater fear of getting things wrong these days and people are terrified of being sacked for making mistakes. My younger colleagues are really good at what they do though.

But as mentioned upthread, when I was in my 20s we had colleagues in their 40s and 50s who we thought were lazy.

We need to be careful with words. Some gen z will use that they are triggered by XYZ when they clearly have no mental illness but it is just their slang jargon just as they might clean up and say it's their OCD when they don't have OCD. Same with a teenage boy who has sex with a 15 year old "consensually" - bit much to call him a child molester even if by law he had illegal sex as she was under 16. We diminish the effect of words used for really serious OCD, child molestation etc if young or old people use the words too often when nothing particularly serious is involved.

Eg I have given 1700 law talks. The first one I gave i was very worried about it. These days someone might say public speaking triggers me with anxiety - they might not even do it because they don't like it. That would be a pity. If instead they just force themselves to do it like the rest of us it soon becomes not so bad.

There are so many factors to consider, among them that university is now lauded as the best way to get ahead in life. So all the tech colleges were promoted to being universities and now everyone is expected to get a degree and the pressure that entails when previously there was more on the job training. Instead, the same kudos and appreciation should be given to all jobs then folk might not feel so pressured into a route which isn't necessarily best for them. Qualifications are great yes but some common sense is required. E.G. making all the lovely ladies at a local playgroup embark on a national qualification in child care at a cost to them for working one morning a week in a job they'd been doing for years. Utter nonsense. Playgroup closes and the community loses a much loved resource.

And yes, many folk are helicoptering their kids to the extent that they can't cope in the real world. My son went for a Saturday job in a cafe. He told me there were a couple of other candidates who turned up with their Mums and stood behind letting the Mums do all the talking. Who would ever employ someone like that and what parent would turn up at a job interview with their kid and basically be interviewed in their stead!! Ultimately if you do your job right as a parent, you ironically make yourself redundant.

Anxiety, stress exist, absolutely but I agree that normal temporary feelings have been conflated with these conditions and people use them as the go-to excuse for getting out of doing something. And if a manager actually does their job and tells them what they should be doing they get accused of bullying. Another go-to word that will get the desired knee-jerk reaction.

There has always been malingering slackers but I do fear it has notched up a few gears in recent years and sadly those in genuine need of help will be less likely to get it whilst resources are used up on those who don't actually need it.

Yes, when ds went for a university interview a couple of years ago the university sent advance notice that parents were not allowed in the interview room .

@DottyHarmer

Yes, when ds went for a university interview a couple of years ago the university sent advance notice that parents were not allowed in the interview room .

I was representing my company at a graduate recruitment fair and this man was asking me loads of questions and the grad himself didn't say a word. I was thinking 'you'll never get a place if you can't even ask one question'

Superb post, VoluptuaGoodshag

@Preech. No one is saying that you have to be hospitalized before your problems count. What people are saying is that there are people claiming to have mental health problems who do not, but in fact have problems that they cause, or that are a normal part of life. IME people with genuine MH problems are desperate to cope with life, and if they can't, want to get back to functioning well as soon as they can. They often work very hard to cover up their issues or compensate for them, rather than using them to get out of things they don't want to do.

@claretblue79. Anxiety is a normal reaction, not pleasant, but a regular experience everyone has. And part of life is learning how to manage it. A disorder is a pervasive chronic pattern of significant impairment to function. There are a a lot of people who perceive any anxiety as wrong, and unmanageable and seek to manage it by having the world adapt to them. Which is not sustainable or helpful, not least to them. You can of course, take whatever you want from this thread. But actually what I see is people talking about the difference between mental health disorders and a lack of willingness to tolerate lifes ups and downs.

But unless you are personally treating them as their doctor or qualified therapist, how would you actually know? How would you know who has "genuine" problems and who is just (according to this thread) being dramatic?

In the meantime, the comments implying that mental health accommodations are ridiculous, that people who speak up about their mental health struggles are exaggerating, and that people who disclose their limits are taking the piss somehow ... those are really disappointing to read. What mental health accommodations are acceptable, then? What mental health dialogue is worthy of conversation? Is it actually ok to be not ok, or was that more performance for social media?

Here are some of my work accommodations:

I always welcome a manager's presence on client presentations, because I get truly anxious, every time, when it comes to public speaking. I'm still presenting the material and designing the slide deck, but the manager is there to listen, to steer the business development conversation with the client, and to add commentary if I freeze during Q&A. It's time out of their day, but it helps me a lot, and it keeps the ball rolling with our client relationships.

The other accommodation is that I reduced my hours and pro-rated my salary, so that I could try and reduce my toxic stress levels. That's not something I asked my colleagues' permission for. It was something I needed to do, because my only other option, for the sake of my health, was to quit. Management didn't want me to quit.

If I was back in the office, instead of WFH, a third accommodation would be an SAD lamp at my desk in the wintertime.

Another accommodation I've had in the past has been fortnightly time off for several months to see a therapist and learn CBT. To the colleagues I mentioned anxiety issues in passing to, and didn't get into the suicidal ideation part, it probably looked like I was going on a jolly and taking the piss.

In the meantime, if your hypothetical young graduate complains he's bored and depressed at work, why don't you just sit down and talk with him during a lunch break about what he finds boring and depressing, regardless of whether he's diagnosed? Maybe having a chance to organize his thoughts, and speak about things with someone who doesn't diminish him, will help him arrive at a good solution and develop some of that resilience you don't think he has.

I think all mental health accommodations are a good thing - the examples you've given are particulalry good. Basically anything, either short term or long term that helps someone do the role they are employed for are great. What I object to are people never doing key elements of their job, the job they agreed to when applying and accepting the role, because of mental health issues.

Short term reduction of key elements while you make relevant accommodations are completely fine - e.g. I came off an overnight rota for a month or two when I was starting on anti depressants that literally knocked me out when I took them because I wouldn't be safe to drive.

But if you sign up for a job that involves driving long distances or giving presentations or a lot of networking or working very early/late shifts then you need to do those things IMHO. Put in any accommodations you need to make them easier or less stressful of course. But just opting out of them completely and expecting other colleagues to pick up the slack (when they may not particularly enjoy those jobs either) is what's unfair.