To be fed up with the lazy graduates I work with....

[H0bnob]

And I say this as an early 20s recent graduate myself! So many young people both in my immediate team and within my department seem to have such a shocking attitude to work I'm finding it really grating. Most of these people have just finished there degree/masters and have never had to work before now and the attitude it just shocking!

To add to this, everyone seems to have anxiety and depression to some degree. I am absolutely NOT dismissing mental health issues and having lived with several i know how debilitating they can be....but to use it as an excuse to get out of everything is just taking the piss....being too lazy to do your job is not the same thing as being depressed, grow up for Christ's sake and take some responsibility.

One of my colleagues (same age as me) has had almost 20 sick days in the last 6 months for mental health...and yet goes out drinking and taking drugs every weekend without failure. When said colleague is in they also do nothing but sit on their phone and complain about being bored and tired. My managers seem reluctant to do anything too with the worry of accidental discrimination and so the rest of us are forced to continuously pick up the slack. Its really doing my head in now, am I being hugely intolerant?? Fully prepared to be told I I as obviously you never know what's going on behind the scenes but christ this is relentless! Apologies this has turned into a proper rant im just so frustrated by society at the minute.

@Wheresmywoolyjumpers great post. Filtering down through the generations now is the premise that everything needs to be perfect and if it isn’t then it’s someone else’s problem to fix it. Obviously not everyone thinks this way but enough people to cause problems for others. There seems to be an increase in professionals having to teach some kids/youths things that a parent should do. E.g. more kids starting playgroup or nursery who are still in nappies. Kids who cannot function or think for themselves because parents take the easy route of just doing it for them because it’s quicker.

There are other examples and cases that I can’t think of right now but all these little things add up to a societal mind shift that it’s someone else’s problem.

There is a brilliant thing called the ladder of accountability. It’s one of those workie enabling things that I normally think is guff but in this case it’s actually brilliant and I use it for lots of things: getting kids to do homework; getting people to go through the right channels for a positive outcome instead of moaning about it. It’s so useful

I agree there has been a sea change in parental involvement - parental over involvement. I’m not saying parents shouldn’t show interest in their dcs’ lives, but now there is interference.

Back when I was at school, my dm (nor anyone else’s) would never in a billion years have rung the school - about anything. Never. If you were ill, a handwritten letter was sent upon your return. And as for ringing up a secondary school about friendship issues. Well, my dm would surely rather have died .

I was walking Dog with some other school mums and they were astonished that I had never phoned the school. They seemed to be calling up every five minutes and unless there was a dire occurrence I can’t imagine what I would have to say.

Continues at university: I’ve seen parents on MN fretting about the quality of their dcs’ rentals and contacting landlords. In the 80s it was a badge of honour how awful your student house was. The Young Ones is not a thing now, evidently!

@DottyHarmer I hear you. Yes, you’re right. Instead of enabling kids to do things for themselves by teaching them how some parents are teaching them that moaning and pointing the finger of blame elsewhere will sort the problem.

And I concur about student flats. In mine, we used to count the number of snails that crawled up the shower curtain each morning.

@preech - as others have said well, there is a world of difference between asking for reasonable adjustments in order to do a job, and not trying or not doing something because you don't want to. I don't think most people would blink an eye at someone having accommodation to go to therapy, or changing shifts for a while because of medications or stuff like that. Certainly I have seen lots of people do these things over my working life and the vast majority of co workers are supportive. But if someone is using MH terms to get out of parts of their job they don't like, or to excuse other bad behaviour, people around them have every right to be frustrated with them.

@Squashpocket

This has been driving mad recently, so I'm going to say it even though I'm sure I'll get my arse handed to me...

Say you lack focus at work (because it's mind numbingly fucking boring and your boss doesn't appreciate you) and you Google strategies to help you manage your lack of productivity - 99% guarantee Google will tell you you've got ADHD.

Or you're only 23 and you have to go to a networking event with 50 other 45 year old professionals who know their stuff and probably each other. You feel bone crushingly awkward. Google tells you you're autistic.

So rather than develop strategies to manage these totally normal, unpleasant life events you diagnose yourself with a disorder and bingo! Now you don't have to improve yourself and it's everyone else's problem.

And this is why, as an actual (late) diagnosed autistic person, I think in the workplace you should have a real diagnosis before allowances made, or at least be in the process of getting on as these can take time. Again I'm likely to get flamed for this.

I see so many people claiming to be autistic or have ADHD. Nearly all of them self diagnosed. Some I'm sure are ND. Lots won't be.

Don't get me wrong. There are loads and loads of undiagnosed adults. Many of us mask so well we've been missed.

I worked in an open plan office in a busy, noisy environment for years. I struggled, I just never knew why. I was called awkward, difficult, all sorts. I still did well in my career until I stopped and had my children because I worked damn hard and it irritates me now knowing how tough I found that environment when, through some of the volunteering I do, I speak to people and say (when it's relevant) 'I am autistic' and they say 'oh me too, can't stand noise, ha!'. You then get chatting and you might ask about when they got their diagnosis and it turns out they're not diagnosed with anything. It's like when people say 'I'm a bit OCD' when they like tidiness.

Drives me mad.

Anyway to the graduates thing. I've been out of the workplace for a few years now but DH started his career on a graduate program. He now mentors them and he says often over the last few years what a bunch of absolute wetties they are. Can't take constructive and appropriate feedback, often sick, always needing accommodations for no good reason.

Fair enough, I guess. I've never worked with anyone who made up stories about their mental health just to get a cheeky day off or avoid a challenging task. Everyone I've ever worked with, including myself, who has disclosed mental health problems and put accommodations in place has had a pretty steep hill to climb.

I could definitely imagine colleagues who aren't privy my issues to giving me the side eye. If others currently struggling with their own mental health read this thread and also worry about a shit-ton of judgement, I worry that could put them off asking for what they need to function, lest they be seen as "wet".

But maybe I've gotten old.

@Preech I would never consider anyone wet for needing mental health or ND accommodations. As I said I worked in an environment for years that led to what I now recognise (having been diagnosed later) as autistic sensory burnout. I remember being called awkward and difficult because I'd nicely ask colleagues in an already busy open plan office not to play their music through their laptop speakers and please use headphones when we had piped music already playing through the in built radio system and the conflicting noise made me want to test my own ears off. I also recall being asked to be sat so that people weren't walking behind me constantly when we restructured and only the most senior managers kept offices. Nope, you're a manager you need to be in the middle. It's horrible. I certainly would insist on accommodations now in any job, knowing what I know and I'd be entitled to them being diagnosed.

In constant I had a young lady (early 20s at them time to my early 30s) work for me who told me that her social anxiety meant she couldn't answer the phone. When she was employed to answer the phone and speak to people. Quite what she thought I was able to do in that situation I don't know. Her social anxiety didn't stop her going out three nights a week though, or talking on her mobile!

I had another one who claimed her depression and anxiety meant she couldn't 'call' in sick. Company policy was unless you were physically unable you called in yourself. I allowed her to text or email me. She still didn't. I said someone else could call for her. She still didn't. Just didn't turn up for days on end and expected for this to be allowed because of her (undiagnosed) depression. When eventually she was managed out (for this, poor performance and excessive sickness) following the correct procedures she attempted to take the company to court. She lost. Well it didn't get that far. She dropped it after receiving advice.

DH has had some of the graduates that he is now a mentor for complain, formally, when he has given constructive feedback on their work. It is the job of a mentor to do this and in fact, it is part of the learning and growth. It would be remarkable (and it's unheard of!) if a new graduate submitted a report that didn't require changes. He also said these days they need spoon feeding, there is a real lack of initiative and drive to get things done or go figure it out and have a go.

There are always people that will need help and that's all well and good but there are an inordinate amount of people that swing the lead and it does a real disservice to people that are deserving of assistance. I don't know if it's a very young person thing or a general people thing!

@Wellarentyouacleverdick I agree - late diagnosed ADHD and the amount of times self-diagnosed people use things as a get out of jail free card...

Even for people with a diagnosis reasonable adjustments enable you to do the job. If they take away parts of the job long-term (short term adjustment etc ok) then you're not really capable of doing the whole job are you?

@Preech

But unless you are personally treating them as their doctor or qualified therapist, how would you actually know? How would you know who has "genuine" problems and who is just (according to this thread) being dramatic?

In the meantime, the comments implying that mental health accommodations are ridiculous, that people who speak up about their mental health struggles are exaggerating, and that people who disclose their limits are taking the piss somehow ... those are really disappointing to read. What mental health accommodations are acceptable, then? What mental health dialogue is worthy of conversation? Is it actually ok to be not ok, or was that more performance for social media?

Here are some of my work accommodations:

I always welcome a manager's presence on client presentations, because I get truly anxious, every time, when it comes to public speaking. I'm still presenting the material and designing the slide deck, but the manager is there to listen, to steer the business development conversation with the client, and to add commentary if I freeze during Q&A. It's time out of their day, but it helps me a lot, and it keeps the ball rolling with our client relationships.

The other accommodation is that I reduced my hours and pro-rated my salary, so that I could try and reduce my toxic stress levels. That's not something I asked my colleagues' permission for. It was something I needed to do, because my only other option, for the sake of my health, was to quit. Management didn't want me to quit.

If I was back in the office, instead of WFH, a third accommodation would be an SAD lamp at my desk in the wintertime.

Another accommodation I've had in the past has been fortnightly time off for several months to see a therapist and learn CBT. To the colleagues I mentioned anxiety issues in passing to, and didn't get into the suicidal ideation part, it probably looked like I was going on a jolly and taking the piss.

In the meantime, if your hypothetical young graduate complains he's bored and depressed at work, why don't you just sit down and talk with him during a lunch break about what he finds boring and depressing, regardless of whether he's diagnosed? Maybe having a chance to organize his thoughts, and speak about things with someone who doesn't diminish him, will help him arrive at a good solution and develop some of that resilience you don't think he has.

Reasonable adjustments are a grey area. Sometimes it's objective, and easy, like changing desks. Other times it's a subjective evaluation as to your value vs what it costs the org. Your management has clearly decided you're worth keeping based on the above.

My job with your accommodations for example :

• SAD lamp, time off, all possible. In fact my team knows of my condition but we all work flexibly so I don't have to request it as an adjustment.
• Manager presence in presentations : not possible, since the point of my role is to represent them.

The organisation's jobs is to create a positive and supportive atmosphere in which concerns can be raised and actioned. It's not to babysit or handhold people.
The correct procedure for dealing with performance issues is a formal performance management process, during which managers are supposed to investigate the reason behind issues. But even then just saying work is boring and depressing isn't very professional. The recommendation then would be to change jobs. The job is what it is and if one finds it boring then it's clearly not suited for them.

@Wellarentyouacleverdick , heh I'm one of those mid-life ADHD diagnoses! I have the psychiatrist letter and meds to go with it, but I needed to go private for the idea to even be considered. Which is another thread entirely.

Lots of clarity now since that diagnosis, and I'm pulling together new tools and strategies through support groups and a more specific CBT programme. But it's taken a few years to get to this point (I was told for years that I wasn't focusing because I was depressed ... it's more like the other way around). And my performance at work took a big hit in the years between realising I was really unwell, working up the courage to finally go to the GP, working with the therapist, and then going back to mental health services all over again when muddling along with CBT and SSRIs wasn't quite enough. I was positive I'd get the shitty, passive-aggressive Secret Santa gift at work one year. That's how bad it had gotten, both with my internal thought process and with how I was managing my workload.

I don't know what to say about the two ex-colleagues you've described. There's one in every crowd, I guess? 🤷🏻‍♀️ 😬 How did your phone-phobe get past the interview stage for a role involving the phone???

My brother is a university instructor and has to deal with receiving poor evaluations from his students if he fails them. It frustrates him. He teaches in America: higher education is so expensive there that everything can seem transactional, and there's enormous pressure to get A grades. That pressure was there even when he and I were kids.

I have a 15 year old just now in her fifth year of secondary. It'll be interesting to see how she launches in a few years, and how she'll get on as a young person in the workforce. She's petrified of making mistakes; at school she is corrected a lot, but not often supported to improve academically. There's definitely a culture at her school of either acing exams at senior level or dropping out at 16. A lot of subjects are taught to the test.

The organisation's jobs is to create a positive and supportive atmosphere in which concerns can be raised and actioned. It's not to babysit or handhold people.
The correct procedure for dealing with performance issues is a formal performance management process, during which managers are supposed to investigate the reason behind issues. But even then just saying work is boring and depressing isn't very professional. The recommendation then would be to change jobs. The job is what it is and if one finds it boring then it's clearly not suited for them.

See, I can agree with that to a point. But a graduate position isn't management or senior level. It's entry level, it's paid at an entry level wage, and surely the point of an entry level position is that you learn something from your senior colleagues and managers as you gain experience in your industry?

Engaging with graduates isn't babysitting, that's surely just what needs to be done. Otherwise, you'd recruit a person with senior-level experience instead. If your graduate employee is bored and depressed at work, that's useful to investigate. Are they being left at a desk all day with some vague instructions and no further interaction? Are they not being given enough to do in a day and sitting in a silent office for hours after completing a few tasks? Are they being handed the most mind-numbing tasks in the department, with no reward of further training or any chance to expand? Or is there a serious mental health problem undermining them? Or is it a little of both?

A quick and compassionate chat could be a lot more productive and valuable than releasing the ton of bricks that a formal performance evaluation entails. You might get something a bit deeper and more insightful from the struggling employee if they feel it's safe enough to truly speak. And it might be a lot healthier for your struggling graduate who, yeah, was probably never allowed to fail growing up, lest they be denied even an interview for a job (see the many Mumsnet threads last summer despairing of all the new A grades, because how could they possibly figure out who was worthy of recruitment 🙄).

My issue with the chat in this thread was never that some people take the piss. We all know someone who had the flu or a migraine or a stomach bug every single Monday morning, before they grew up. My issue was that a lot of the posts in this thread were starting to imply that people who speak up about their mental health struggles were probably bullshits, unless they were being hospitalised (because then that's "real"). There's a long road between having poor mental health and needing the hospital. Some people blow that road up completely without ever seeing a doctor.

I wonder how many posters on this thread have put a "it's ok not to be ok, I am always here to listen" on their social media, while rolling their eyes at people who ask for time off or accommodations at work to treat their mental health. Because that's bullshit.