I think I've just experienced what it's like in England..

[Builtthiscityonsausagerolls]

To not be a native English speaker.

My natural first language is Welsh. I went to an English university and obviously have a native proficiency in English but when chatting im more comfortable in Welsh.

So... I'm on a train in the Midlands with a friend. Had a chatty conversation with the conducter in English, guy sitting across from us very friendly. The we switched to Welsh and the difference in attitude was immediate. Felt very hostile. Very hard to explain, but as soon as we switched languages it became almost threatening?

I'm used to speaking Welsh in maybe more border towns (mainly chester) where its quite common, but thinking about it not in 'deep' England :) 😀

We keep going over it, but the change in attitude was definitely when we changed language. Is this really the experienced of non-English speakers? The hostility really was quite overt

Yes, feeling hostility from a strange man is definitely in the imagination of 2 women who independently both felt extremely uncomfortable

But you have been very vague about what form this hostility took. People are bound to wonder if you’ve overstated it (not imagined/invented it) when it’s something you just ‘felt’ and the whole interaction was silent.

People in Birmingham are well used to hearing people speaking languages other than English! Have you any idea the number of different languages spoken by people living in the Midlands area? It is not an unusual occurrence that would make the majority of people look at you with hostility . It sounds as if it was the way that you just switched languages .

Oh and to answer the actual question, I'd say the majority of my friends (all living in Britain a long time) are bi-lingual in various languages and I've certainly never heard any of them mention noticing hostility when they're speaking in their mother tongues although I don't doubt it happens in some places / from some people.

You’re making an issue out of nothing. He probably thought you were either talking about him or excluding him. No wonder he wasn’t exactly friendly. Huge leap to assume he was xenophobic. A smaller leap to assume you were.

Possibly he felt like he'd somehow overstepped the mark by appearing friendly and thought that when you switched it was signal that you didn't want to engage any more with his friendly looks or attitude/felt he was nosing in on your conversation/you felt he was being inappropriate in some way, and so to show that he was definitely not being nosy or creepy he went the other way?

Well living in Wales we already hear two languages daily. So when I pass people speaking French, German, Chinese etc, or am in a restaurant, the adjoining table speaking in another language I think nothing of it. We get tourists we employ people from other countries. Our NHS is a multi national one.

God knows, but I am from a family that originated in Eastern Europe and has members from 3 or 4 countries now so grew up with loads of languages being spoken that I could not understand, I love listening to another language being spoken and love all accents, don't know how others feel around different languages.

German native speaker, lived in UK for 15 years. I'm sure I missed out on houseshare viewings b/o my accent. And there was the queue jumping accusation in response to me speaking German to kids.

It got worse over time, in the run up to the referendum. But it was far from universal and could have been a lot worse. I miss the British style of conversation...

@Lalliella

You’re making an issue out of nothing. He probably thought you were either talking about him or excluding him. No wonder he wasn’t exactly friendly. Huge leap to assume he was xenophobic. A smaller leap to assume you were.

She's xenophobic for speaking her first language?

'LittleDandelionClock

Since when did people speak Welsh in Chester?"

Are you being serious? Would you say the same to a native French, Italian, Arabic speaker?

Welsh is her first language, and fully legitimate.

Can't believe your attitude.

This thread is hilarious.

1. I come from Chester. You do indeed hear people speaking Welsh.

1. The OP was never having a conversation with the man, as has been repeated many times (but ignored even more).

1. How can anybody think it is rude for OP to speak her native language on a train because somebody else who has absolutely no relationship with the OP or her friend can't understand it? Seriously, how are so many people so insecure?

1. Are people really trying to suggest they can't tell when they are faced with a hostile man? If so, there's a lot of very sheltered lives going on here.

It's almost as if people want to find reasons to disagree with the OP. Weird.

Good to know that there are so many Brits who only ever speak the local language when they go on holiday abroad though. I'm very impressed. I often speak English in public when I am in non-English speaking countries, how very rude of me.

@WestendVBroadway

I don't actually have a problem with you speaking to your friend in your mutual native language. However what you experienced sounds similar to what me and DH experienced while holidaying in Wales. We entered a pub where 90% of people were conversing in English. As soon as the customers and staff heard our English accents they all switched to speaking Welsh. Well why shouldn't they, we were in Wales? However we felt a similar hostility to how you felt. It was patently obviously that they wished to exclude us as they had been speaking English when we got there.

How on Earth could you have known 90% of people were speaking g English when you entered the pub? Could you hear every single conversation?

How did his attitude change if he wasn't part of your conversation? How did you even know what he was doing if you were having a private conversation? You presumably were not staring at his face looking for changes in expression whilst talking in Welsh so how did you perceive a change in a stranger's attitude whilst chatting privately with a friend?

@Builtthiscityonsausagerolls

Why switch? Because I was having a chat with my friend in our native language??? Should we do it in English so that strangers on a train in Birminham don't think we're talking about them. Really

You just want to be told YANBU. Why bother to ask if every time someone raises an alternative viewpoint you just sneer at it?

Yes, the English are uniquely racist, evil and xenophobic. That's what you wanted to hear, isn't it?

Most welsh people, even the fluent ones speak a bit of 'wenglish' in casual conversation, with an odd english word, or phrase, every other sentence. Sometimes depending on fluency they might say a whole sentence in English if they can't think of the exact simile/example in Welsh.

Yes this. It’s really not unusual for fluent Welsh speakers to use English words in conversation. I’m fluent first language but don’t actually know the Welsh for every single word in the English language.

It;s actually horrible to sit next to or opposite people jabbering away in a language you don't understand. No escape, You're sharing a small space, it's deliberately exclusive, it's just noise.

Jabbering, eh?

That's quite a xenophobic way of putting it.

If you hadn't been having the conversation, speaking in your native language wouldn't matter.
I think it's that you switched made it a bit awkward.

I had 2 new employees try to accuse me of being offended when they spoke their native language at work.
Fortunately the big boss overheard it and came over and told them I wouldn't be offended as I'm deaf.
He did tell them the business language is English and everyone was expected to speak it at work.

@Builtthiscityonsausagerolls

We didn't speak to him. We spoke to the conductor. He sat across from us, friendly smile. When conductor moved on We continued our conversation in Welsh. On a train in Birmingham. Just us two. When we switched from English to Welsh there was a notable hostility. Most responses agree that this is fine. I find it baffling that I'm being rude to a stranger by speaking my native language to my friend.

Oh do behave 🙄

You didn't even speak to the guy and yet his body language changed? 😂

He was probably creeped out by how intensely you were studying him, while apparently having a chat with someone else.

I speak a second language. Well, strictly speaking, English would be my second language.

Those who haven’t experienced what you mean will dismiss it because people like to deny racism exists. But I know exactly what you mean about the hostility in body language and the looks.

Yes, the English are uniquely racist, evil and xenophobic. That's what you wanted to hear, isn't it?

OP is not talking about ‘the English’ - just one guy. And the incident was clearly unusual enough that she felt it worthy of mention. The point she’s making, I think, is that now she knows how it feels to be on the receiving end of hostility based on language (and, by extension, nationality, etc). It’s a statement of empathy.

@FiHefyd

Oh, and I always hear Welsh spoken in Chester, but I know what I'm listening out for.

This.

When people half-overhear speech that's two quiet to really listen to, they tend to assume it's in their own language. Unless you're a Welsh speaker, you are unlikely to notice people speaking Welsh around you.

This same phenomenon might explain some of the implausible "We walked into the pub and EVERYONE suddenly switched to talking Welsh!" stories.

How sure can you be that English was being spoken before you arrived, really? Even if you overheard definite English words, much Welsh conversation is peppered with loan words.

@TheAntiGardener I'm from Chester. It's not commonly spoken here but obviously we get Welsh people on day trips etc..

@MadAntonia

Yes, the English are uniquely racist, evil and xenophobic. That's what you wanted to hear, isn't it?

OP is not talking about ‘the English’ - just one guy. And the incident was clearly unusual enough that she felt it worthy of mention. The point she’s making, I think, is that now she knows how it feels to be on the receiving end of hostility based on language (and, by extension, nationality, etc). It’s a statement of empathy.

Except some bloke she never even spoke to apparently 'changed his body language' according to the OP.

That's it....literally.

It's a bit insulting to anyone who really has been on the receiving end quite frankly.

Utter bollocks

An urban myth born of paranoia
@Texasfucked how so? I had my youngest child, 33 years ago in a north Wales hospital. In those days when you had a c section you stayed in for 5-7 days or so. Old fashioned nightingale ward with 5 other women. All could speak English but none of them spoke a word to me, even at the table when meals were served they all conversed exclusively in Welsh. Until one of them asked me to donate milk for her slightly early baby as hers hadn’t come in and she was a vegan.

@MadAntonia

Yes, the English are uniquely racist, evil and xenophobic. That's what you wanted to hear, isn't it?

OP is not talking about ‘the English’ - just one guy. And the incident was clearly unusual enough that she felt it worthy of mention. The point she’s making, I think, is that now she knows how it feels to be on the receiving end of hostility based on language (and, by extension, nationality, etc). It’s a statement of empathy.

Yes. Thank you. This was exactly what I meant. In retrospect I shouldn't have mentioned sodding Chester

But the point was that I have somewhat more of an understanding of the xenophobia/racism of speaking another language which I've not really considered before being white British and fluent in English.