I think I've just experienced what it's like in England..

[Builtthiscityonsausagerolls]

To not be a native English speaker.

My natural first language is Welsh. I went to an English university and obviously have a native proficiency in English but when chatting im more comfortable in Welsh.

So... I'm on a train in the Midlands with a friend. Had a chatty conversation with the conducter in English, guy sitting across from us very friendly. The we switched to Welsh and the difference in attitude was immediate. Felt very hostile. Very hard to explain, but as soon as we switched languages it became almost threatening?

I'm used to speaking Welsh in maybe more border towns (mainly chester) where its quite common, but thinking about it not in 'deep' England :) 😀

We keep going over it, but the change in attitude was definitely when we changed language. Is this really the experienced of non-English speakers? The hostility really was quite overt

But the point was that I have somewhat more of an understanding of the xenophobia/racism of speaking another language which I've not really considered before being white British and fluent in English.

Again, quite insulting to people who really have been on the receiving end, rather than perceiving some random they've never even spoken to, apparently appearing to have changed their body language.

But if you think this has given you some sort of insight into their lives, then good for you?

I think it's because you switched language. I'd be quite suspicious of what you was talking about (probably me!)

I've never heard so much whiny shite about "exclusion", "You're excluding me", "I demand access to your space", "Don't exclude me, I have the right to be nosy" than since I started living in the UK and more recently, since Mumsnet.

Entitlement seems ingrained in every facet of life.

If I heard people speaking a different language, even if they'd just talked to me, I'd mind my business because I have no right to their conversation. I'll pick up sounds from what they're saying and either recognise the language or find it interesting in a nonchalant way.

I think the paranoia around thinking others are talking about you is mainly because it's most people's idea of social interaction - to gossip about others and if they could do so in another language (more often), they would. Pretty sure some of these people enjoy holidays where they could be the ones with the foreign language for a change and "rudely" converse in their home language while talking about others. Hence, they think everyone else is doing the same.

Again, quite insulting to people who really have been on the receiving end, rather than perceiving some random they've never even spoken to, apparently appearing to have changed their body language.

OP said ‘somewhat more of an understanding’. That’s all. She isn’t suggesting she was on the receiving end of actual xenophobia/racism. Just that the experience was an eye-opener. I’m sure she’d be the first to say it was nothing compared to what some people endure every day.

And that’s the point, I think.

If more people knew what it was like to be on the receiving end of xenophobia/racism, there might be less of it.

it is considered rude to switch like this because it excludes other people.
he probably thought you two were being hostile towards him.
this is not a new concept, i'm surprised you have not come across it before.
i don't think it is anything to do with xenophobia, just a lack of social grace, or maturity.
if you had boarded speaking welsh, and continued the same throughout, that would be different.
but to switch is excluding, yet you ascribe hostility to him. turn around.

Is this really the experienced of non-English speakers?

Of course it is. You're white British and have now experienced this. Imagine being a minority speaking in your native tongue. People look at you like you have shit on your foot.
In your case you don't even have to be a minority to feel as if you've done something wrong but it's very common for those who speak their native language in public places

OP, there is nothing at all wrong with you speaking your native language in a conversation with someone else who also speaks that language. The man referred to was a stranger, not part of any aspect of your conversation, and did not need to be considered or included. You did correctly speak to the conductor in English (baffling that so many people in this thread think the two men are the same person).
However, this man is just one man, who may have been hostile (although you seem unable to describe at all why), or may not have been hostile, he might have been annoyed at the noise, he might have been stressed at something else entirely, he might have been tired, he might just have the sort of face that looks miserable.
You saying you've experienced what it's like in England to not be a native English speaker, solely based on this one man, is like an American saying they know what it's like to be English because they've seen a film with Hugh Grant,

it is considered rude to switch like this because it excludes other people.
he probably thought you two were being hostile towards him.

The entitlement on this app is ridiculous😵‍💫
You're allowed to 'switch' and speak whatever language you want whenever you want. You're not obliged to carry on speaking English just to make someone feel more comfortable. The comments are so odd!

If he was smiling along he may have felt part of the conversation, even if you weren't speaking directly to him, and was offended when you switched.

It's also possible that if you were more obviously 'foreign' he would have been less alarmed by the switch. As it was it could have come across like native English speakers deliberately talking in another language to be obtuse. The fact that you were talking about him in a negative way may also have been more obvious than you thought. If your English was laboured the switch may have seemed more natural.

You are not unreasonable to talk Welsh to your friend, but you are lacking empathy to not see how this might be perceived.

Since he didn't do anything to you other than give off disgruntled vibes you are being unreasonable not to let it go.

People are allowed to silently disapprove of randoms in public. It's only when they use it as an excuse to harrass or abuse then it becomes an issue.

@Texasfucked it really isn’t bollocks about certain Welsh people turning from English to Welsh as soon as English tourists enter a pub or public space. I spent two weeks in Tenby and it happened every night without fail. We were also staying with a good friend that had lived there for 15 years and still had to deal with locals being hostile and changing language when he walked in.

I also went to uni with a friend from Wales who even said herself, that a proportion of Welsh people do change to their mother tongue as soon as English tourists come along. She chose to get into debt to come to uni in England to get away from that “bollocks” as she described it.

It happens both ways, just because you may not of seen or heard it, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

@sparklefarts

I 100% would have thought you switched language to either talk about me or to get me out of the conversation

This 🖕

@WorraLiberty

But the point was that I have somewhat more of an understanding of the xenophobia/racism of speaking another language which I've not really considered before being white British and fluent in English.

Again, quite insulting to people who really have been on the receiving end, rather than perceiving some random they've never even spoken to, apparently appearing to have changed their body language.

I have been on the receiving end if racism that you might think falls more clearly into the category of racism (eg two years ago I have had teenagers throw stones at me and my family while yelling "pakis out". Is that racist enough for you?)

I don't feel that my experiences of racism have been trivialised by the op. On the contrary. I'm grateful to the op for raising this topic and for showing empathy. On the other hand it's disheartening to read the responses of so many people who insist that the stranger absolutely couldn't have been xenophobic and that op MUST have done something wrong. Who knows what really happened. It's not Impossible though. Xenophobia does exist and many of us have to deal with it way too frequently. If you want to improve things acknowledging that it is a possibility would be a good start.

Nothing wrong with speaking your native language at all. Presumably you weren’t speaking to him personally when you made the switch. Perhaps he did feel uncomfortable, but that’s for him to deal with.
Welsh is beautiful to hear (not that I know a word of it) and you might hear it anywhere where its native speakers live or travel to, Chester being an obvious example because of its geography. Perhaps not everyone realises it’s some people’s first language.

@KikoLemons

It;s actually horrible to sit next to or opposite people jabbering away in a language you don't understand.

No, it’s not.

Though if you think it is, one assumes that whenever you travel to a country where you don’t speak the local language, you stay silent from the moment you go through Passport Control to the moment you get back on the plane.

@WomanStanleyWoman

Why would you expect him to continue being friendly when you’d deliberately switched to a language he didn’t understand? Even the most positive interpretation is that you were signalling that your conversation was now private - so of course he’d pull back.

Yes exactly this. If you'd started with speaking Welsh then I'm sure he wouldn't have given a shiny shit.

@MissCruellaDeVil

I think it's because you switched language. I'd be quite suspicious of what you was talking about (probably me!)

….that’s monstrously egotistical.

Welsh speaking groups almost invariably speak Welsh and not English amongst themselves. All this speaking in English then switching to Welsh when a tourist hoves in sight is bollox, just bollox. It never happens. Imagine a group of Danes who are all fluent in English . What language do you think they use in the bar? Their mother tongue of course. Same in Wales.

@Nimchinge

Thats really rude. I'm tri lingual and would never switch languages like that, unless I prefaced it by explaining to the non speaker that I needed to switch quickly for a specific reason. Its alienating and makes other people feel like an idiot. You were being a dick

Have you actually read the OP posts?? Maybe you need to work on your English comprehension? The OP said... they used English to speak with the conductor only, the didn't speak to the stranger across the aisle. When the conductor moved on, the OP and friend resumed their conversation in Welsh

Wow, some people have an extremely high opinion of themselves if they think non-english speakers are speaking about them, talk about being extremely big headed.

I can’t imagine being so entitled that I thought every spoken word around me must either be about me, or understood by me.

OP I’ve had to make sure my son knows not to speak Urdu in public, sometimes its just a rude stare or a change in body language, other times it has led to verbal or physical abuse.

@Nimchinge

Thats really rude. I'm tri lingual and would never switch languages like that, unless I prefaced it by explaining to the non speaker that I needed to switch quickly for a specific reason. Its alienating and makes other people feel like an idiot. You were being a dick

So you’d tell people on public transport who you hadn’t spoken to that you were switching languages, right…

@granny24

Welsh speaking groups almost invariably speak Welsh and not English amongst themselves. All this speaking in English then switching to Welsh when a tourist hoves in sight is bollox, just bollox. It never happens. Imagine a group of Danes who are all fluent in English . What language do you think they use in the bar? Their mother tongue of course. Same in Wales.

Thank god the voice of reason!

We holidayed in a Welsh speaking area, when we went into a pub the locals were speaking Welsh obviously, they switched to English to greet us and pass the time if day etc. They then returned to their conversation in Welsh.

Not an issue, although of course some English people will have decided that they spoke Welsh as soon as they entered. Which of course is rubbish.

OP carry on speaking the language you're most comfortable with! Ignore the blatant hostility!

That the man was smiling may mean that he was briefly thinking that he would be chatting with you on the journey. You then switched to your own language which immediately made him realise that he wouldn't be chatting with you.

Was this to do with language per se or to do with inclusion/exclusion of strangers or to do with a sense of entitlement to the company of women?

Who knows!

@MissCruellaDeVil

I think it's because you switched language. I'd be quite suspicious of what you was talking about (probably me!)

Just why would you think that? Do you ever sit down opposite someone you don't know and have a full on conversation about them?

Do you say to your friend, look at that woman she's got a red dress, glasses and black shoes. She's quite tall and her scarf is long.

I mean really what is there to say about 99.99% of people?

So much paranoia.

@Builtthiscityonsausagerolls A friend of mine has a ‘posh’ southern English accent- he and his girlfriend went into a shop in Wales and the two women started talking in Welsh and were slagging him off- he know this because his girlfriend is Welsh - the women were a bit taken aback when she answered them

Cuts both ways I guess