I think I've just experienced what it's like in England..

[Builtthiscityonsausagerolls]

To not be a native English speaker.

My natural first language is Welsh. I went to an English university and obviously have a native proficiency in English but when chatting im more comfortable in Welsh.

So... I'm on a train in the Midlands with a friend. Had a chatty conversation with the conducter in English, guy sitting across from us very friendly. The we switched to Welsh and the difference in attitude was immediate. Felt very hostile. Very hard to explain, but as soon as we switched languages it became almost threatening?

I'm used to speaking Welsh in maybe more border towns (mainly chester) where its quite common, but thinking about it not in 'deep' England :) 😀

We keep going over it, but the change in attitude was definitely when we changed language. Is this really the experienced of non-English speakers? The hostility really was quite overt

[quote landofgiants]@WestendVBroadway - I am not denying that racism exists in Wales, or that nobody has ever experienced hostility. My point is that Welsh speakers rarely use their language to exclude others. When I hear 'the story' it is almost always exactly the same, and if you ask for details the story-teller often admits that it happened to 'a friend of theirs' or some other such bollocks. The Caernarfon pub goers of your experience would have been just as unfriendly, whatever language they were speaking. It sounds like a shit pub.[/quote]
It did not happen to a friend of mine it happened to me. Round the Denbigh /Ruthin area and Anglesey. It didn't just happen once. I would never say all Welsh people behaved like this, it was a small minority. I guess in the same way very few English racists would say something. But it was always done in public in situations where it was difficult to challenge their behaviour.

@Stellaroses
And the old as time "they all switched to welsh when we walked in" 😂😂
100% did not happen.

You are so rude. Don't call me a liar. Just because you haven't experienced it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. You should have a think about your prejudices.

[quote madisonbridges]@Stellaroses
And the old as time "they all switched to welsh when we walked in" 😂😂
100% did not happen.

You are so rude. Don't call me a liar. Just because you haven't experienced it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. You should have a think about your prejudices.[/quote]
Was it in a pub?

@wonderstuff

Really struggling to understand why Welsh speakers would be speaking English in a pub/shop until an English person appears, do English people really think Welsh is a language spoken exclusively to alienate them? Quite elaborate as a concept.

Really, you lack the imagination understand why? Because where I was there was an anti-English sentiment and resentment about newcomers coming into the area and all the incumbent upheaval that brought.

No one thinks Welsh is used solely to alienate people. It's an old language that the Welsh are eager to kerp alive. Good for them, its important for people to feel attached to their heritage. If people were speaking Welsh when I went into a shop, I never thought anything about it. But if you go in a shop and the language changes, it feels very hostile.

If a foreign person said that English people had deliberately tried to exclude them in order to make them feel uncomfortable, I bet you'd be the first to condemn such action. How come because I'm English, you can't afford me the same courtesy?

How did they know you were English?
What was they talking about?
Did they all turn round stare for a second and then start talking in Welsh?
So many questions

@Pumperthepumper. No, I'm not aware it ever happened to me in a pub. It happened in shops. Does it matter where it happened? It happened. If people experienced it in pubs, it's just as hostile.

I'm sorry, I haven't read the full thread but I live in Wales and am a member of a sports club that is predominantly Welsh speaking. Every time I enter the room all the parents switch to English, although they are Welsh speaking. I speak a little Welsh but I'd like myself and my children to be exposed to it more, when I asked them why they switch they explain they don't want to be rude and want to include me in the conversation. I would suggest (possibly and without trying to be judgemental), that if you had already been talking to the person and a 'friendship' had been established that it may have been interpreted as rude or exclusive in the same way as my friends consider it friendly to speak in English. Unfortunately this doesn't really help me or my children in learning Welsh!

@Jacketpotato84

How did they know you were English? What was they talking about? Did they all turn round stare for a second and then start talking in Welsh? So many questions

Some people knew I was English because I worked in a hotel where people used to come to the bar where I worked. Sometimes they heard me speak eith friends. It was a while ago but I do remember a shopkeeper chatting with a customer in English and I asked her where something was. She told me in English, not rudely. Then picked up her conversation again...in Welsh. If that happened to you, what would you make of that?

I am not a native and OP I have had this many time in public places. Me and my little Icelandic family were in a shop in the midland once, speaking Icelandic, my daughter who was 18 at the time wanted to buy lipstick, and we conversed in Icelandic, because why jot, anyway the shop assistant said to us very loudly to speak English or get out. Another time on a bus me and my son speaking Icelandic again and the passenger behind us scoffed what is that for a language. It’s embarrassing and in the end we learnt very quickly to only speak our mother rung in private. Never heard the English being told to shut up in Spain Or Greece.

@lockdownalli

I am not convinced by this "hostility" to be honest. He didn't say anything, didn't move seats or anything. You cannot describe anything he actually did that would warrant the label hostile.

How do you know he wasn't behaving as he usually does when on a long boring train journey?

I'm imagining something similar to the scowls which appear if someone plays loud music on the train.

There's one thing about the OP which doesn't add up though. You were on a TfW service, right? And you managed to find not just one, but two available seats? Impossible. Normally with TfW one has to fight for a decent place to stand.

Apologies for the typos

@Flipper39
I would suggest (possibly and without trying to be judgemental), that if you had already been talking to the person and a 'friendship' had been established that it may have been interpreted as rude or exclusive in the same way as my friends consider it friendly to speak in English.

Sorry. I don't understsnd what you're trying to say.
If I'd already been talking to who? If I had established a friendship, I'd expect them not to be rude. If they were rude they wouldn't be a friend. Sorry, what would be considered rude or exclusive?

Look, I go into a shop. Two women are speaking Welsh. I've got no problem with that it's Wales. Welsh is their national language. Crack on.

I go into a shop. Two women are speaking English. They identify I'm English. They start speaking Welsh. I interpret that as hostile and unwelcoming.

To the people saying it’s rude - when you go on holiday overseas, assuming you can speak (some of) the language, do you feel obliged to speak that language all the time so as not to exclude anyone? Really?
IME English people have a blind spot when it comes to other languages - Welsh people don’t switch to Welsh when you come in: they were speaking it anyway. It is one of the languages of the UK.
I am English but had the good fortune to live in Wales.

Madison
Maybe the shopkeeper was being polite to the person she was previously speaking to by continuing her convo in the way she felt comfortable. I wouldn't bat an eyelid in that occasion. However if I had walked in to a shop where everyone is talking English, I walk in and then they all immediately start talking Welsh I would be anxious and v uncomfortable.
I would think they were talking about me I think alot of people would feel the same.

I am not going to deny that the whole “they all switched to Welsh” thing happened to a few people, because there are rude people in every single country. However, it is most definitely incredibly exaggerated. And a lot of that is to do with the urban myth effect but also misunderstanding how Welsh bilingualism, in particular, works. 100% some people who think they have experienced this have actually experienced nothing of the sort but didn’t understand enough about the Welsh language or bilingualism to know that none of it had anything to do with them. A lot of people in this country (by which I mean UK) genuinely don’t understand that some people really are more comfortable in Welsh than English. A lot of people also don’t understand that Welsh people often switch between Welsh and English mid conversation - or mid sentence, and not just to quote things. It’s a funny thing but really common. However, I am sure that some of the complaints are genuine. Like when you walk into a very “locals” type pub and immediately feel like this is not a pub where outsiders of any sort are welcome. Conversation stops, everyone looks and you feel utterly unwelcome and can’t wait to leave. That’s without adding in another language. And yes, some Welsh people are anti English because of all the history. As I said, there are rude people everywhere, and Welsh people must understand that and acknowledge that some stories may be true. English people must accept that in some cases, they have been mistaken and the language switch was nothing to do with them or where they came from.
This is quite a good article: whywelsh.wordpress.com/2013/08/20/welsh-speakers-are-unwelcoming/amp/

@Finlandia
Welsh people don’t switch to Welsh when you come in: they were speaking it anyway

Stop it. Stop calling me a liar. I have told you this happened. I've told you the circumstances and the establishments. I've told you the geographical area. If I knew or could remember their names, I'd tell you them too. I've said two or three times now, IF they were speaking in Welsh before I arrived, I didn't give it a second thought. When they changed language, I did. Stop trying to deny my experience.

Great article. This in particular is a good point

“If you still think that these possible explanations seem rather implausible, consider what would need to be true in order for the pub story really to be correct. Is it possible, for example, that the language could have survived so well in the first place were it used only so sparingly? Use it or lose it, as they say. The myth is all the more incoherent when you consider that the type of unwelcoming Welshie who’s presumably at fault has to be one of those insular nationalists who’s supposed to be so hostile to all things English. The obvious question: why would they, of all people, use the (apparently) hated language of the evil conqueror in the first place?*

Why would people be speaking English in the first place if they’re supposed to hate the English so much?

Also, those who think this has happened to them, do you think you were the only non Welsh speakers to have gone into the pub or shop that day? What do you think happens when another non Welsh speaker comes in? It’s just so implausible that people speaking English switch to Welsh as a direct result of a non Welsh speaker coming in. As opposed to using English words and flipping back and forth between the two languages in a way that is natural to them.

@Jacketpotato84

Madison Maybe the shopkeeper was being polite to the person she was previously speaking to by continuing her convo in the way she felt comfortable. I wouldn't bat an eyelid in that occasion. However if I had walked in to a shop where everyone is talking English, I walk in and then they all immediately start talking Welsh I would be anxious and v uncomfortable. I would think they were talking about me I think alot of people would feel the same.

If her other customer was more comfortable speaking in Welsh, why weren't they speaking it before I arrived? I've said several times, I have no problem natives speaking their native tongue. But like you, when they changed from English to Welsh, it left a bad taste in my mouth. I've got to say, I never experienced a large group changing their language. It was just when it was two or three people. These days, I'd probably tell them how rude they were and walk out, but I was younger and more self-conscious and just put up with it.

He might have thought you were Serbo-Croat or something. I lived in Wales for over 3 years and I never heard anyone speaking Welsh except on TV. My kids did Welsh at school and could never speak any of it or even pronounce place names properly.
Possibly there was a misunderstanding, but I suspect he may have been showing a dislike for foreigners.

@MidgeRidge. If it makes you feel better that the stupid English person couldn't figure out that one minute they're talking comprehensible English and then the next they're talking (from my pov) incomprehensible Welsh, then you think what you want. It doesn't change my experience. I happened to live in North Wales where there was (can't speak for now) strong anti-English sentiment.

I've said repeatedly I have no problem with people speaking Welsh - I worked in a bar of a hotel and Welsh people came in, addressed me in English and then chose to converse in Welsh. I was never offended. They didn't do it to be rude. Because I can recognise the difference between those who have the intention to be rude and those who don't.

[quote madisonbridges]@Finlandia
Welsh people don’t switch to Welsh when you come in: they were speaking it anyway

Stop it. Stop calling me a liar. I have told you this happened. I've told you the circumstances and the establishments. I've told you the geographical area. If I knew or could remember their names, I'd tell you them too. I've said two or three times now, IF they were speaking in Welsh before I arrived, I didn't give it a second thought. When they changed language, I did. Stop trying to deny my experience.[/quote]
Just to back what you've said I Have also experienced this when in a shop with my mum a few years back in Llanelli, English was being spoken between 2 people I said something to my mum in English to which she relied and then suddenly the language switched to Welsh..

This doesn't mean that all of Wales are the same like wise English. OP you say you never spoke to the man yet was an expert in what he was thinking and the looks he was portraying...with those skills you should become a PI 🕵️‍♀️

@CounsellorTroi
Also, those who think this has happened to them, do you think you were the only non Welsh speakers to have gone into the pub or shop that day?

In the present day only 30% of people living in Wales speak Welsh. When I was there it was close to 10 -15%. It was a minority. But I lived in North Wales which is where it was most likely spoken. I flat shared with my English friend who had a welsh-speaking boyfriend. I heard Welsh being spoken. I learnt a few words while I lived there. I have nothing against the Welsh or the Welsh language.

The majority of the people going in her shop didn't speak Welsh and they were Welsh. I don't suppose the shopkeeper had a problem with them. I didn't imagine it happened to me. I saw the faces of other people in the shops.

those who think this has happened to them
I don't think it happened to me. It flipping did.

I am also a little confused about the friends chatting to the conductor and the stranger chatting to the conductor. I don't think it would be that odd for the stranger to think he was part of the conversation. Especially because OP said it was a friendly chat and not just asking a question. I have been part of a conversation before but not directly spoken to each participant. Personally I'd be happy to not have to talk anymore, but I can see a friendlier person being sad that they were no longer having a chat. That doesn't mean that the friends should have carried on in English, just that xenophobia isn't the only explanation.

And while I'm not lucky enough to speak other languages I do have bi/trilingual friends and family. I do know that people do switch to other languages to talk about others. I have a Polish friend that is annoyed when his mum talks about strangers in Polish because he says he never knows when the stranger will know what she's saying. And I certainly knew what a man on a bicycle on the pavement meant when he called me kurwa when he rode past me. I don't assume people are talking about me in another language and don't much care. But to say it never happens seems so dismissive of the people who are worried about it and very unlikely.

I haven't finished reading the thread but my jaw is on the ground.

There are a few posters who get it, EileenGC and others, but my god, what are the rest of you on about?

I have been in the OP's position many times. (I couldn't take the train home from uni {in Wales, back to Wales} without going through Shrewsbury. Many of us who live in Aberystwyth, Pwllheli, wherever, will have had the experience of meeting a friend or neighbour on the platform at Wolverhampton or Shrewsbury or Euston and stting with them (and speaking whatever our common language may be together) all the way home.

I know all the people who think the OP is unreasonable aren't going to come back and read the thread, but this is for the lurkers.

Why do you think you should be able to understand whatever anybody else is saying??
When you are on holiday in Spain (or wherever) do you speak the local language with your family and friends? No, you speak English, your mother tongue.
If you were on the eurostar to Paris with your husband, would you speak French? or even Breton? Normand? Basque? or would you speak your mother tongue, English?

Turning back to your friend (or child/mother/husband) who speaks the same mother toungue as you do should not be a problem, and I am ABSOLUTELY AMAZED THAT ON A SITE I VISIT ALMOST EVERY DAY TO CONVERSE WITH OTHER PEOPLE IN ONE OF MY OTHER LANGUAGES (ie English), THAT OTHERS COULD EVEN BEGIN TO THINK THIS IS UNREASONABLE.

Please, think about this. The women whose words you are reading every day. Many, many, many of them are communicating with you in a language (English) which is not their first language!! I know that there are many Welsh women on here. There will also be many women who grew up speaking Gaelic in Scotland and Ireland, as well as all the speakers of Polish, Urdu, Punjabi, French or any other language.

When you come across us speaking Welsh Puujabi Urdu Arabic Hungarian Polish on a train we are not excluding you - we are simply speaking our mother tongue to our daugter/son/mother/friend...

@takenforgrantednana that doesn't make sense given that Welsh language proficiency in Llanddulas is very low (as per most coastal resorts). The odds on the pub being filled exclusively with the 20.5% of people locally who actually speak Welsh are pretty slim. Then consider that it's popular with tourists.

By the way, skimming through Tripadvisor reviews brings up plenty of results describing the pub as "welcoming".