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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why do people believe Covid was made in a lab?

181 replies

Disabrie22 · 23/11/2021 21:49

I saw this on another thread about someone having a cold - where does this theory come from? I only know one person who believes this, who interestingly is in medicine. I have no strong opinion, just trying to live through this like most people. But I’m interested in why people might believe this.

OP posts:
RamblingOldWoman · 24/11/2021 11:51

KurtWildesChristmasNamechange

I agree that it felt like very unusual when I had something than couldn’t be diagnosed as Covid in early Feb 2020 as we hadn’t started testing over here. I am normally rarely ill and generally have a very strong constitution. I had proper flu in the winter of 2000 for the first and only time in my life while immune compromised as pregnant and this was nothing like it. It came on so suddenly and I honestly thought I was going to die and my head was going to explode from the violent coughing. The chills were like I was being injected with ice, actually painful which I will never forget. I also had a terrible taste in my mouth but didn’t lose my sense of smell funnily enough. It disappeared in 5 days (including cough) like it had never happened and I was back full steam in the gym in day 7!

Not sure if that was just my body’s reaction to a new virus or something else. Didn’t get side effects from the Covid vaccines either.

DH and all 4 DC then had diagnosed Covid 9 months later but I never got it (did PCR tests) despite not taking any precautions. I am the type who takes steps to keep my germs to myself but the DC don’t. One coughed my my face numerous times while I was doing a test on him.

Theirs was mild, more like a cold and half lost their sense of taste and smell, half didn’t.

knittingaddict · 24/11/2021 12:10

@KurtWildesChristmasNamechange

A lay person's feelings about a virus do not equal the knowledge of a trained virologist. That is a fact.

So when they test vaccines on human subjects, do they not take the information given by those subjects on how they feel, side effects etc seriously, because they're just a 'lay person'?

Half the things we know about illnesses on this planet exists because of information gathered from people who've had that illness.

But scientists have much better ways of telling if virus is manufactured or not. They don't use test subjects for that, but use them to look at side effects. Scientists can look at the dna and see literally what it is made of. They have looked and even they can't see that it is manufactured.

Also, you haven't articulated what made it feel "artificial" to you. Could you share that?

KurtWildesChristmasNamechange · 24/11/2021 12:14

@Mummyford I can't explain it properly, I just know something about it didn't feel 'organic'.

The loss of taste and smell was nothing like the one you experience when you have cold/flu. It was almost psychological, like the virus was purposefully weakening me. Like it had shut something down in my brain that controls consuming food. And once again no, not like how you go off your food or have no appetite when you're ill with other viruses. This felt more.. targeted.

I know it sounds weird, it felt weird! But I'm not the only one on this thread to have had this kind experience, feel free to ask them too.

And I'm not interested in my experience being debunked, either so anyone who fancies trying, don't bother.

LemonSwan · 24/11/2021 12:16

A lay person's feelings about a virus do not equal the knowledge of a trained virologist. That is a fact.

In previous years I would have agreed with you.

But it turns out throughout this whole pandemic that the average collective gut feelings of people who have very little evidence (through being lay) have turned out to be true over the scientists shouting them down.

Whether thats the virus being transmitted through the air, the possibility its leaked from a lab, that its a good idea for us to wear masks, the concerns about the vaccines, the bizarre argument over ivermectin when the jury is still out and the new Merck antivirals turning out to look suspiciously similar.

And I don't think that is anti science either. If you know about the paradox of the wisdom of crowds then you know its entirely possible for a collective crowd to be more accurate with little information, than an individual with a lot of information.

TheKeatingFive · 24/11/2021 12:20

It may not be possible to 'feel' if a virus is synthetic or not. However, it's an interesting and unusual way to describe the effect and it seems to have been experienced by a reasonable number of people.

It's definitely worth investigating further and this area of medicine where the physical meets the psychological is one that's worth trying to understand a lot more about.

dreamingbohemian · 24/11/2021 12:23

It's interesting that so many people are saying it's less scary to think this was a man-made disaster. For me, I find that more scary because there are labs all over the world working on even worse viruses and you'd like to think they are foolproof.

We will never know how it started, China has seen to that

3scape · 24/11/2021 12:28

Whilst I have a lot of time for scientists and allowing that they are more likely to understand these things than the general public. The guy who isolated lsd managed to do that because of poor lab practice and technique. It's not a leap that someone testing samples screwed up, gave themselves a virus. Maybe they were even mainly immune themselves.

But then there are also thousands of labs in the world investigating all sorts. America do have a fear of China though. Maybe because America has such a 'our way or the highway' approach as does China. It suits America a lot though. This idea. Really plays into their anti China stance

TheReluctantPhoenix · 24/11/2021 12:28

The start of the virus was in Wuhan, where a lab was doing ‘gain-of-function’ (making viruses more transmissible) experiments on Corona viruses.

The lab had the previous year been inspected and found to have areas of security weakness.

At the beginning of the outbreak, the Chinese were less than open about it, banning internal flights from Wuhan whilst still permitting international flights.

The Chinese were less than co-operative with an investigation into the lab.

None of the above in any sense proves a lab leak, either deliberate (very unlikely) or accidental (quite possible).

I don’t think we will ever find out the answer, or not for many decades at least.

RockinHorseShit · 24/11/2021 12:32

Because of the Wuhan lab studying coronaviruses. It's not a huge stretch to believe that there could have been a leak that triggered the current pandemic. An accidental leak is one of the more believable conspiracy theories around covid, though I believe it has been ruled out with research. Others have a darker agenda & deem it deliberate germ warfare, which is ridiculous from the off

dreamingbohemian · 24/11/2021 12:35

It is extremely unlikely to be deliberate biological warfare. Every state knows that it is impossible to control pandemics once they are out there, it would only hurt their own country as well.

An accidental leak is completely plausible though.

justasking111 · 24/11/2021 12:39

Students returned from China after Xmas, Chinese New year to university everywhere. Halls of residence were perfect Petri dishes. Students went down like nine pins. Not the students fault no-one had identified it back early 2020 officially. From here it rippled outwards. Was the same with ski trips abroad.

It's a pandemic it will find you through flights, holidays, work, education.

TarasCrazyTiara · 24/11/2021 12:42

As conspiracy theories going it escaping from a lab is the most plausible one I’ve heard by far. I’m not saying it’s true, I’m just saying it’s not batshit crazy that someone asked the question.

Jenala · 24/11/2021 12:50

I don't think it's so much it was made in a lab. More that it was being studied and potentially altered in a lab and possibly escaped by accident.

Because there is a lab in Wuhan, the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV), that studies bat coronaviruses specifically. They handle bat coronaviruses from all over China, as well as other parts of Asia, most recently relevant including Laos, where the closest genetic match of covid19 has been found. There is potential evidence of human tapering with the virus esp re the furin cleavage site.

Ecohealth alliance were very involved with the WIV and have made grant applications in the US for gain of function research on bat coronaviruses. Though some were refused, it's not out of the bounds of possibility that another body did give grant money. Pete Daszak is president of ecohealth alliance and has been very keen to brand the lab leak hypothesis as a conspiracy theory to the point he early on wrote a letter for the Lancet and had various linked scientists sign it, only for it to recently come out via FOI that this was organised and people deliberately withheld their association with ecohealth etc to make it look better.

Original letter: www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30418-9/fulltext

FOI emails usrtk.org/biohazards-blog/scientists-masked-involvement-in-lancet-letter-on-covid-origin/

Because lab leaks happen all the time without malicious intent, including various SARS causing viruses among others
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_laboratory_biosecurity_incidents

Of course it could also be a coincidence that the city that has the virology lab doing risky gain of function research on bat coronaviruses just happened to be the point of natural origin spillover event.

Either way the first reply of "Maybe the age-old stereotype about evil Chinese scientists taking over the world" is such a dumb comment. Is that you Daszak?

Notbluepeter · 24/11/2021 12:51

I am not a clinical biologist. But there seems to be a consensus that the virus is too inefficient to have been deliberately designed.
"receptor-binding domain of the spike protein in SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, is suboptimal, "meaning that someone designing an optimal receptor-binding domain sequence probably would not 'engineer' the sequence that evolved in SARS-CoV-2" source www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/05/scientists-exactly-zero-evidence-covid-19-came-lab

Mypathtriedtokillme · 24/11/2021 12:54

Because it was always a lab leak in every single movie.
Really its a much more interesting story (and more easily understood) then viral evolution which is really a fluke and there is nothing to Blame.

It does make you wonder what animals other viruses and bacteria originally evolved in before it took the leap into humans and what viruses we have to animals. (Flu is pigs and birds, T.B and measles is thought to come from cattle and a heap of zoological diseases from bats)

SVRT19674 · 24/11/2021 12:57

Because the Chinese government lie through their teeth about practically anything and are famous for their cover ups. No one trusts them.

PlanDeRaccordement · 24/11/2021 13:09

@SVRT19674

Because the Chinese government lie through their teeth about practically anything and are famous for their cover ups. No one trusts them.
All governments lie to a certain extent. They have to.
WilsonMilson · 24/11/2021 13:17

Oh come on, have you been living under a rock? It’s a widely accepted hypothesis that it was lab created.

The Wuhan lab was engaged in gain of function research in Coronaviruses, basically genetically manipulating Coronaviruses in order to (apparently) improve surveillance or create therapeutics. Gain of function research is ethically questionable at best, but that’s a whole other topic. Anyone still buying into the wet market story is naive at best
imho.

PlanDeRaccordement · 24/11/2021 13:25

It’s a widely accepted hypothesis that it was lab created.

No it’s not. It’s been repeatedly debunked. Check your facts
www.factcheck.org/2021/06/scicheck-the-facts-and-gaps-on-the-origin-of-the-coronavirus/

“Viral Genome Almost Certainly Not Engineered
Early in the pandemic we repeatedly debunked baseless conspiracy theories circulating on social media about SARS-CoV-2 being bioengineered.

For example, there were bogus claims that the virus contains HIV “insertions” and false claims that the virus was created by a prominent Harvard chemist who was charged by the Department of Justice on Jan. 28, 2020, for making false statements about his ties to China.

Many scientists remain open to a lab escape of a natural virus, but fewer entertain the notion that SARS-CoV-2 was engineered. While this cannot be ruled out entirely, multiple coronavirus experts view this as implausible.

“I am completely confident that the virus was not engineered,” University of Pennsylvania coronavirus researcher Susan Weiss told us in an email.

University of Utah’s Goldstein said it was “virtually impossible,” while Dr. Stanley Perlman, a coronavirus researcher at the University of Iowa, went with “impossible.”

In March, a group of scientists, including Kristian Andersen of Scripps Research and Garry of Tulane, published a paper in Nature Medicine that combed through the genome sequence for any signs of lab tinkering and concluded there were none.

Initially, the researchers had been suspicious that there were elements that were engineered. But upon closer examination, the group rejected that hypothesis, as we have written. (Contrary to some suggestions, the Andersen paper was not just an opinion piece that had no vetting by other scientists. A spokesperson for Nature Medicine told FactCheck.org by email that the paper was peer-reviewed.)

Even if scientists used methods that would not leave a trace of manipulation, as some lab leak proponents have suggested, that would still leave the arguably insurmountable problem of not knowing enough to create the virus.

“No one would know how to do it,” Perlman said. “If one doesn’t have the virus in hand, how do you decide to make this?”

Recently, there has been additional speculation about SARS-CoV-2’s furin cleavage site, which is a spot on the virus’s spike protein that’s cut by the enzyme furin to activate the spike and prepare the virus for entering cells. Experiments have shown the site is required for the virus to infect human lung cells and for viral transmission in ferrets. At first glance, the site is potentially curious, as it’s absent in coronaviruses that are closely related to SARS-CoV-2.

Furin cleavage sites, however, exist in many other coronaviruses, such as feline coronaviruses and the virus that causes MERS. Because similar sequences for the cleavage site are found in other coronaviruses, “its presence is not at all suspicious or indicative of lab manipulation,” Robertson said.

“The lineage SARS-CoV-2 emerged from is under-sampled so it’s not surprising there’s some unique properties in its genome,” he added.

Thomas Gallagher, a professor of microbiology and immunology at Loyola University Chicago who studies coronaviruses, also said he did not think the furin cleavage site was a sign of engineering.

“Some coronaviruses naturally have furin cleavage sites, others do not,” he told us in an email. “These cleavage sites evolve naturally under various natural selective pressures. The selective pressures are often powerful, so the furin cleavage site is a hotspot for coronavirus variation.”

In a self-published story on Medium, later posted on the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists’ website, former New York Times journalist Nicholas Wade zeroed in on an ostensibly suspicious element of the furin cleavage site. Namely, that the underlying genetic sequence of the virus’s cleavage site looked manipulated because of two CGG stretches that code for the amino acid arginine. Because CGG is not often found in coronaviruses, he argued, instead of evolving naturally, it was more likely that a scientist had gone in and inserted the site into the genome while doing gain-of-function research.

In support of his theory, Wade quoted David Baltimore, Nobel laureate and president emeritus of CalTech, as saying the furin cleavage site with its arginine codons was the “smoking gun for the origin of the virus” and that it made “a powerful challenge to the idea of a natural origin for SARS2.”

But on Twitter, Andersen pushed back, noting that while rare, CGG triplets are not unheard of in SARS-CoV-2’s genetic sequence and are used to code for arginine 3% of the time. Indeed, some feline coronaviruses differ there from SARS-CoV-2 by just one nucleotide. And now that the world is awash in SARS-CoV-2 sequences, there’s no sign of the virus mutating away from using those triplets at the cleavage site, which might be expected if the sequence was unnatural.

Informed of Andersen’s points, Baltimore told a journalist with Nature that he agreed that the site could have evolved naturally. FactCheck.org contacted Baltimore as well and in an email he acknowledged he “shouldn’t have used the phrase ‘smoking gun’ because it sounds so definitive,” although he added that he didn’t think Andersen “is giving enough credence to the possibility that the furin cleavage site had a non-natural origin.”

Virologists, however, say there are plenty of other reasons why it’s incredibly unlikely that the furin cleavage site was engineered, starting with the fact that the site is not a very good cleavage site.

“This is a pretty bad one; it’s not cleaved very efficiently by furin,” Goldstein said.

In fact, he said that based on other coronaviruses with similar cleavage sites, it’s known that mutations that make the protein sequence closer to the SARS-CoV-2 sequence end up losing the ability to be cut.

“If you’re trying to insert a furin cleavage site,” Goldstein said, “why would you pick a furin cleavage site that is not actually a functional furin cleavage site in other viruses?”

Additionally, the cleavage site exists as an insertion in the genome that strangely breaks up the triplets in what is called an “out-of-frame” insertion. Any scientist wanting to add a furin cleavage site “would just plop it in nice and clean,” Goldstein said. “I don’t how to explain from a scientific standpoint how ridiculous this is, the idea that you would do an out-of-frame insertion. It just makes no sense.”

Garry, the Tulane virologist, was also baffled by the suggestion that the cleavage site sequence showed the virus had been engineered. “Which graduate student or post doc would think to put it in out-of-frame? That part I just don’t get,” he said. “This, for all the world, looks like a natural virus.”

Another line of speculation is that instead of a scientist deliberately choosing what to modify, the virus was serially passaged through human cells or an animal. That, in theory, would eliminate the requirement for a scientist to know what to insert or change. Lab leak proponents often cite experiments with human cells or humanized mice as a potential way this could happen.

But Perlman, who has done experiments passaging coronaviruses in mice, said that would not work. “Most of the time when you take viruses and pass them in tissue culture cells, you get cells that grow very well in tissue culture cells and nowhere else,” he said. And humanized mice are still mostly mice, he said, so the virus would adapt to growing better in mice, not humans.

“It’d have to be something nearer to a palm civet cat, which is a weird animal to be passaging it [the virus],” Perlman explained.

You’d also need a starting virus that is much closer to SARS-CoV-2 than any known virus, he said, and even then, the virus you’d end up with would almost certainly not be SARS-CoV-2.

As a result, Perlman said, such a scenario could be technically possible but is extraordinarily improbable. In his mind, the engineering scenario can be ruled out, although he still considered accidental release of a natural virus as an unlikely, but possible, pathway.

Further complicating the lab leak scenarios is that when SARS-CoV-2 is grown in the standard cells used to isolate and propagate viruses in the lab, the furin cleavage site is frequently lost, as is documented in multiple reports. The Shi lab, notably, used those cells with each of the three SARS-related bat coronaviruses it successfully isolated in the past.

Some have also argued that SARS-CoV-2 was too well adapted to infecting humans at the start of the pandemic — and that this could indicate human design.

But Penn State’s Boni said that’s a faulty line of thinking.

“There’s no guarantee that something that crosses over has to be perfectly adapted or half adapted or a third adapted. Whatever happens, happens,” he said.

The H1N1 swine flu pandemic in 2009, for example, he said, was very well adapted to humans and took off very easily and very quickly. “It is not a sign that they were bioengineered,” Boni said.

A paper he co-authored with Robertson in PLOS Biology pieced together SARS-CoV-2’s evolutionary history and suggests that the virus’s ability to infect a broad range of mammals evolved hundreds of years ago.

“This would indicate that the SARS-CoV-2 progenitor did not have to adapt to humans much, if at all,” Robertson said, because it had already become a “generalist virus” long ago, although he said an intermediate animal could very well still be involved in the transfer to a human.”

Mypathtriedtokillme · 24/11/2021 13:41

We have extremely poor surveillance of Zoological diseases and we did have is poorly funded. (But I really hope is much better funded now after covid-19 has emerged)

It’s hopefully a wake up call after many near misses.
Things like the Hendra virus, Nipah virus, SARS or MERS.

We had the scares of the emergence of Marburg, Ebola or HIV to make us more zoological disease aware and that we haven’t linked more viruses back to bats that have emerged in the last 50 years because we keep destroying bats habitats and causing more likelihood of a disease evolutionary jump to humans.

Humans are just mammals it’s not much of a leap.

Mypathtriedtokillme · 24/11/2021 13:52

There have been (not Hadn’t)

Bats have a fabulously efficient immune system.
That’s what 64 million years of wide spread evolution gets you.
It’s easier to not get your immune system over reacting to everything when you can incapsulate and live and let live to fly another day.

TractorAndHeadphones · 24/11/2021 14:02

@Blurp

Bear in mind that there are Institutes of Virology in major cities all over the place. A city is also the most likely place for an outbreak to happen (because people are generally getting closer to each other, obviously). So pretty much any viral outbreak will occur in a city, and there's a good chance there will be a lab studying viruses somewhere nearby.

I'm not saying it didn't "escape from a lab", just that the presence of a lab nearby isn't evidence of anything.

They’re certainly not ‘all over the place’ unlike hospitals
BahHumbygge · 24/11/2021 14:09

Because there were fears expressed a few years ago about a new SARS virus being worked on in the labs:

[NOTE DATES: November 2015]

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20151113035319/uncnews.unc.edu/2015/11/09/new-sars-like-virus-can-jump-directly-from-bats-to-humans-no-treatment-available/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20151113035319/uncnews.unc.edu/2015/11/09/new-sars-like-virus-can-jump-directly-from-bats-to-humans-no-treatment-available/

www.vice.com/en/article/wnxqnm/ethical-questions-arise-after-scientists-brew-super-powerful-sars-20-virus

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3314247/New-SARS-like-virus-jump-directly-bats-humans-without-mutating-sparking-fears-future-epidemic.html

Gain of function research is a thing:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gain_of_function_research

Because military Level 4 bioweapons lab in the US was served a cease and desist warning and completely shut down in August 2019:

www.nytimes.com/2019/08/05/health/germs-fort-detrick-biohazard.html

A few weeks earlier, a nearby retirement community was hit by a mysterious, unidentified pneumonia-like respiratory pathogen, 54 became ill and a couple of residents died. It's practically unheard of for respiratory infections to spread in retirement communities in midsummer. A second nearby community was also hit.

Source: ABC News

abcnews.go.com/US/respiratory-outbreak-investigated-retirement-community-54-residents-fall/story?id=64275865

LawnFever · 24/11/2021 17:20

@knittingaddict

Sorry I meant:

What symptoms exactly felt "artificial"?

I know you weren’t asking me but I felt the same way.

In my dim & distant past I’ve taken chemical made illegal drugs, Es and also what used to be classed as ‘legal highs’ (which are no longer legal).

Covid to me felt more like a come down from those chemicals, which I know were artificial/man made than any other virus or illness I’ve had in my life, that’s why I felt like it was manufactured in some way.

I appreciate this sounds a bit mad, and for anyone who’s never taken anything like that it would be hard to explain any other way.

Jenala · 24/11/2021 18:54

It doesn't have to be deliberately designed. The research plus a leak is enough. Arguing that it's not lab engineered doesn't preclude a lab leak of a heavily researched virus that has evolved in lab.

Stanley Perlman is not an unbiased source. The world of bat coronavirus researchers is small, and very motivated not to have this be a lab leak.