Please look at this and voice your thoughts

[DoubleTweenQueen]

Ok, so, it has come to my attention lately that gender-questioning is becoming more prevalent - particularly with pre-teen and teen girls.

DD2 seems to be questioning her own identity - doesn’t surprise me. Consider it a normal part of painful adolescence, particularly how women are portrayed and treated.
She has just turned 12. Was bullied when she was 9. Developed GAD; changed schools. Felt better, made new friends, more relaxed with life.

Then the pandemic - fear, worry, social isolation, introduction to tech for education and contact, her older sister succumbed to an eating disorder which has been a source of pain and more worry, and continues to be.

DD2 got into minecraft and you tubers who did minecraft. From there she has acquired quite a grounding in the toxicity of gender politics, mostly from the US it seems.

She seems to have been facilitated by school in her new thoughts about herself - she says she is demi-female, wants to change her pronouns to ‘they’ and her name. This is the first I’ve heard of it, by accident. No-one has mentioned anything about her questioning her identity or any upset from her at all. School have not talked to me at all regarding what else might be going on in her life - first term of senior school. I have filled them in. They are backpedaling.

What I have learned very quickly is that schools appear to be counselling children who are gender questioning, by affirming their thoughts through counselling in school - which is confidential and not shared with parents because the current thought seems to be - once a child questions their gender, they are identified as a ‘protected minority’ and supported and affirmed. Some schools are also enabling children to change their pronouns and name in school - step towards social transition.

This is counter to current thought regarding providing a safe neutral space for children to question and grow, without enabling or influence a move in a trans direction, and one they could feel unable to renege upon at a later date.

More worrying, there is a bill currently being drawn up in Parliament regarding the ban on ‘conversion therapy’ - heavily lobbied for by LGBT+ groups.
This wouldn’t seem to be an issue, apart from this does actually impact the field of child psychology in that when a gender-questioning child goes for therapy or support, the counsellor or psychologist may not look for co-morbidities, i.e. delve deeper to question whether the gender-questioning is a symptom of some deeper issue - anxiety, trauma, neurological-diversity. This is just bonkers! But look at what happened at The Tavistock clinic.........

I aam posting here, because most (including me) were blissfully unaware of the stealth by which this ideology is creeping into our schools and soon nurseries - under the guise of inclusion and anti-bullying. That our children have just gone through two years of difficulty and over-exposure to tech and social media. That their mental health has truly suffered.

If you have older children in secondary school - ask them if they hear of students declaring they are non-binary, interested in changing name or pronouns, interested in Communism and vegetarianism - it seems to go together.
It is very common now. Social contagion as bad as eating disorders, and potentially as damaging, if enabled to move down the pathway of puberty blockers, hormones, surgery!

Please look into this, and make yourselves heard!!

www.transgendertrend.com/conversion-therapy-legal-opinion/

Also - look at Genspect, and the Bayswater Support Group.

These are children, who are vulnerable and neuro-plastic. They are influenced heavily by SM. Please make yourselves aware, before this becomes law, and when your gender-questioning child goes for any sort of counselling, they will be met not with in-depth discussion about what has led them to their belief about themselves being wrong, or weird, or ‘other’ (so normal for adolescents!!) - but affirmation of a trans identity, and not looking for co-morbidities, because it will be against the law

Thanks for reading.

Put here for traffic, but MN can move wherever they like.

I would like to see MN also look into this, as an important parental issue (if they dare )

Vote - YABU - you’re hysterical
YANBU - you might be on to something

Agree with all this - lots on the feminism board about it, but also lots of TRAs like to come here and tell us all that Mumsnet is a pit of transphobic bigoted scum. Think it’s slowly shifting though, after all the companies pulled out of Stonewall’s Gender Diversity Scheme, and their CEO did an absolutely disastrous interview on Woman’s Hour last week. It’s finally filtering through to enough people, so the tide is turning against the blind removal of the rights of women and girls, not to mention lesbians (a protected group Stonewall has chucked fully under the bus in the name of ✨gender ideology✨).

Fingers crossed this momentum keeps gathering and we can protect and support trans people the way they need, without dismantling valuable protections for other (much, much bigger) groups who need theirs too.

Come on over the the feminism boards, you will find advice and support.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights

Was hoping this crazy post would be a bit more effective than crossing fingers :D and that getting more folk interested might help with the momentum.

I don’t think children should be recognised as being trans accept for the evidence of a thorough psychological evaluation of all factors which may be affecting them.
This is not what’s happening, and is at risk of being denied to them, due to conflation with the LGBGT+ human rights/inclusion interests, with which I have zero argument, but that it must not reduce the protections of other vulnerable groups, as you say.

oops - *except, not accept. Apologies.

Feminism board - love it, but came her for thorough exhibitionism, and reach/exposure :D

I find myself horribly divided!

I think it is positive that children can access support and discuss issues. I also think that being accepting of people who are genuinely trans or non-binary is something we should do as a society.

BUT.

I am accutely aware that as a child I would have been steered down this path - despite not being trans or non-binary.

I am autistic and didn't want to get big boobs (like all my family have, and indeed did happen) because I liked playing sports and didn't want sexual attention. As a preteen I expressed that I didn't want to go through puberty. Which is pretty common, especially amongst neurodiverse people.

That discomfirt with a woman's body, were I to express it now in a school setting, would be seen as an indicator of gender dysphoria - not that I was uncomfortable with puberty/ growing up.

I want to know what safeguards exist to help support children, with a range of different mental and physical issues, to prevent misdiagnosis? And how does that work if parents/ guardians are not involved?

interested in Communism and vegetarianism - it seems to go together.

"Is YOUR child saying they love animals and think capitalism is bullshit? Beware, they might be being turned trans!"

It's a fucking nightmare, all dc friends are flag wavers for the LGBTQ+ and most have declared how they identify, what gender they are, what name they use.... All good and well for those who are dropping it into their daily lives as its the latest Co trend... Not cool for dc with zero confidence and under camhs because why address your issues when you can be someone else?

The only good thing is they do homework in the lgbtq+ club.

My child is quesonng their identity. What school can provide or afford to provide this counseling you mentn though . Even sue a sucide attempt the NHS / MIND can't come u with counselin. Sorry. But your post suggests ifiniteresources that simply do not exsist

To me it's just that as something becomes more socially acceptable, more people reflect on their own circumstances. For a long time the concept of changing your gender did not exist, and until very recently it was not widely accepted. A hundred years ago, even twenty years ago, most people who had doubts about their gender would have ignored their feelings because the benefits of changing gender had to be weighed against the risks, both physically/surgically and in terms of the social backlash one might get. Now, the idea of changing gender is widely accepted as valid and real, so it's no surprise people who in the past might have kept quiet are now much more open.

25 years ago, whilst I was at school, literally no child was openly gay. Not a single one. Homosexuality was legal but still heavily frowned upon, it was seen as wrong and commonly used as a playground insult. Nowadays it is increasingly accepted in school, every year group has a few pupils who see themselves as gay, quite openly. Is homosexuality among children more prevalent, is this generation more likely to be homosexual? I'd say it's more likely children of my generation were more fearful of coming out, that children who were homosexual decided it was better to pretend to be straight. After all, school is all about fitting in.

I think the same situation applies with transgender issues in school. It's not that it's more common now, it's that as society increasingly accepts the idea of same sex relationships and of changing gender, it's inevitable that children who in the past would have kept quiet are now happy to be more open.

I don't think there's any avoiding this even if you wanted to. Tolerance and acceptance goes hand in hand with increased prevalence. Children are impressionable and it's natural that by seeing transgender or gay people living successful lives they are more likely to want to investigate those routes themselves.

I don’t think children should be recognised as being trans accept for the evidence of a thorough psychological evaluation of all factors which may be affecting them.

The trouble with that kind of argument is that it suggests that there is something inherently wrong with being trans, that being trans is a symptom of trauma and by extension it's not a real "thing". You are starting from the point of view that a child who says they are transgender is misunderstanding things or is only saying that because of there being something else wrong in their life.

The more a behaviour is accepted by society, the more common it will be. Society can't promote LGBTQQIP2SAA rights and enshrine them in law and then be surprised that more people explore these aspects of their personalities. Sure, there will be casualties along the way, people who chemically and surgically changed their gender in their teens may regret it down the line, just as someone who explores their sexuality when younger might come to realise they are heterosexual after all.

The choice is, accept these things and everything that comes along with it, or reject them and regress a few decades.

@HarrietsChariot

To me it's just that as something becomes more socially acceptable, more people reflect on their own circumstances. For a long time the concept of changing your gender did not exist, and until very recently it was not widely accepted. A hundred years ago, even twenty years ago, most people who had doubts about their gender would have ignored their feelings because the benefits of changing gender had to be weighed against the risks, both physically/surgically and in terms of the social backlash one might get. Now, the idea of changing gender is widely accepted as valid and real, so it's no surprise people who in the past might have kept quiet are now much more open.

25 years ago, whilst I was at school, literally no child was openly gay. Not a single one. Homosexuality was legal but still heavily frowned upon, it was seen as wrong and commonly used as a playground insult. Nowadays it is increasingly accepted in school, every year group has a few pupils who see themselves as gay, quite openly. Is homosexuality among children more prevalent, is this generation more likely to be homosexual? I'd say it's more likely children of my generation were more fearful of coming out, that children who were homosexual decided it was better to pretend to be straight. After all, school is all about fitting in.

I think the same situation applies with transgender issues in school. It's not that it's more common now, it's that as society increasingly accepts the idea of same sex relationships and of changing gender, it's inevitable that children who in the past would have kept quiet are now happy to be more open.

I don't think there's any avoiding this even if you wanted to. Tolerance and acceptance goes hand in hand with increased prevalence. Children are impressionable and it's natural that by seeing transgender or gay people living successful lives they are more likely to want to investigate those routes themselves.

I don’t think children should be recognised as being trans accept for the evidence of a thorough psychological evaluation of all factors which may be affecting them.

The trouble with that kind of argument is that it suggests that there is something inherently wrong with being trans, that being trans is a symptom of trauma and by extension it's not a real "thing". You are starting from the point of view that a child who says they are transgender is misunderstanding things or is only saying that because of there being something else wrong in their life.

The more a behaviour is accepted by society, the more common it will be. Society can't promote LGBTQQIP2SAA rights and enshrine them in law and then be surprised that more people explore these aspects of their personalities. Sure, there will be casualties along the way, people who chemically and surgically changed their gender in their teens may regret it down the line, just as someone who explores their sexuality when younger might come to realise they are heterosexual after all.

The choice is, accept these things and everything that comes along with it, or reject them and regress a few decades.

This is beautifully put.

I understand concerns about treating trans children medically and don't think kids should be sent off to get hormones the second they say they're trans, but largely - let teens figure things out themselves.

@NothingSafe I don’t believe I said there is anything wrong with being interested in Communism or vegetarianism, but that it seems to be par-for-the course with social media influencing particularly teen girls, so is useful indicator.
That’s all.
Calm down.

25 years ago, whilst I was at school, literally no child was openly gay. Not a single one. Homosexuality was legal but still heavily frowned upon, it was seen as wrong and commonly used as a playground insult.

HarrietsChariot you don't seem to understand that gender ideology is bringing this sort of thing back, not making it better. Being a lesbian (ie a girl who is only attracted to other girls) is seen as transphobic, and many young lesbians are frightened to say that they are exclusively same-sex attracted, and hounded and shamed if they do. To be clear, it's routine for young "queer" people to insist that lesbianism should include anyone who says that they are a woman, so young lesbians are being pressured into sex and relationships with transwomen and nonbinary males.

Meanwhile, lesbians - as if they don't have enough to deal with - are also being pressured to think that, because they are gendernonconforming, and fancy other girls, they must "really" be transmen. Some are bullied and shamed if they resist it, for being "self-hating transphobes". Those that go along with it end up on a journey that leads to hormones, surgery, permanent physical changes. There's a growing community of lesbians who have detransitioned, and yet who have been left with mastectomy scars, permanently lowered voices, facial hair, etc, that they will never recover from.

Even clinicians acknowledge that this is happening. One at the Tavistock - the leading clinic for young people with gender dysphoria - has said that this is eliminating gay people.

Also, what the hell are "LGBTQQIP2SAA rights"? I ask this as a fully paid-up bender. Perhaps I didn't get the latest LGBTQQIP2SAA memo?

@HarrietsChariot

This may well be true for some young people, but not all.
It is far more complex than that. Children need a neutral space in which to figure things out, which means zero pressure (however light) either way.

Latest understanding from a child psychology pov differs from your general assertion.

This is not about "I don't think there's any avoiding this even if you wanted to” - this is about ensuring the child is able to make the right choice for them, and are fully confident and comfortable with that choice long-term - critical if medicalisation leading to surgery is the path.

We do not need legislation that restricts/makes unlawful children’s access to holistic support, which is not based on scientific evidence.

So call your child their preferred name and refer to them as 'they' and make sure they have a counsellor through the NHS or privately who can help them with no bias. If you don't trust their school's counselling service then you can find your own!

And while you're doing this research, you can research what counsellors do and find out that they aren't going to convince your kid that they're trans, they'll just help them if they are. Unless of course you don't want your child to be cared for and supported?

I am supporting my DD in the ways I am able, and feel are ‘neutral’ -

She may wear what she likes - always has been able to.

She wants her hair cut quite short - I am making appointment. She has had her hair short a few times, and it suits her really well.

She may do any sport or club she likes - always has been able to.
I am focussing on her emotional needs more (difficult with her sister’s illness), spending more 1:1 time, and enabling her to express herself in her environment - re-decorating her room for example.

I am supporting her desire to be vegetarian.

I am restricting her access to SM and her time on tech, and improving sleep hygiene.

All attempts to reach out and support her self-expression and self-esteem are being met very positively. She is calmer and happier.

I am open to any discussion - to mostly listen. She hasn’t wanted to talk to me about gender-questioning at all. I’ve always thought she might be a Goth, or lesbian as she grows up. Whatever, it’s fine. I couldn’t love her any more than I do. She’s an amazing clever and sensitive person.

I understand her gender-questioning to be recent, and can see some glaring issues in her life that may have brought her to questioning herself as she seems to be doing. I don’t think I should ignore those as being irrelevant.

Do those who question my concern about the subject have children or young teens?

@HelplesslyHoping

So call your child their preferred name and refer to them as 'they' and make sure they have a counsellor through the NHS or privately who can help them with no bias. If you don't trust their school's counselling service then you can find your own!

And while you're doing this research, you can research what counsellors do and find out that they aren't going to convince your kid that they're trans, they'll just help them if they are. Unless of course you don't want your child to be cared for and supported?

That would be enabling a social transition, so no, that would not be neutral. I am focussing on her immediate needs in a rational stepwise way. She has not verbally asked me to do either of those things. I don’t think you read my post

And I am seeking counselling which will not be biased in any direction, but will help her address all her worries - which is more difficult than you might think - hence my increasing concern about the general situation, and the thread!!

This shit terrifies me to the point where (as a non religious person) I'm wondering if a religious school might be a wise choice in the current climate, purely because they tend to be more socially conservative and thus may take a more neutral view

@DeepaBeesKit

This shit terrifies me to the point where (as a non religious person) I'm wondering if a religious school might be a wise choice in the current climate, purely because they tend to be more socially conservative and thus may take a more neutral view

You would think that, wouldn’t you! But you would be wrong.

Which is another reason for the thread.

Parents need to talk to their schools and ask them about their approach.

You may be surprised/disappointed/alarmed.....

I'm amazed at how quickly this has taken over, it's regressive and terrifying, as the parents of a yr 4 girl I am genuinely worried about how this will play out over the next couple of years.

I have arranged a meeting with the school to discuss this. Our household is full of vocal feminists so I'm hoping she has the basics covered and won't feel pressured into identifying as something just because her friends are, she has a solid understanding of this topic, but I'm aware peers opinions hold more weight that parents as they get older

In my view, children should be taught in primary school that some kids have one parent, some have two - a mummy and a daddy - and others have two mummies or daddies. No need to explain why that is.
Teach human reproduction at around 11, which is the usual age already.
All the other stuff, including homosexuality and gender identity, should be left till maybe Y9. Youngsters have a tough enough time adjusting to puberty without being force-fed yet more things to worry about. It's gone too far too young and they are not old enough to handle it. Let them settle into themselves a bit first before telling them they might not be the gender they think they are.

Yes, indeed, however the lobby groups are training teachers how to support ’trans’ children:

www.spectator.co.uk/article/stonewall-s-worrying-guidance-for-schools

See also the Kite Trust etc etc......

@CharlotteMaytimes

Agree with all this - lots on the feminism board about it, but also lots of TRAs like to come here and tell us all that Mumsnet is a pit of transphobic bigoted scum. Think it’s slowly shifting though, after all the companies pulled out of Stonewall’s Gender Diversity Scheme, and their CEO did an absolutely disastrous interview on Woman’s Hour last week. It’s finally filtering through to enough people, so the tide is turning against the blind removal of the rights of women and girls, not to mention lesbians (a protected group Stonewall has chucked fully under the bus in the name of ✨gender ideology✨).

Fingers crossed this momentum keeps gathering and we can protect and support trans people the way they need, without dismantling valuable protections for other (much, much bigger) groups who need theirs too.

I completely agree with this.

It’s all well and good to compare trans rights with gay rights, but they aren’t precisely comparable. Homosexuality is a way the brain works from birth, and can’t be changed and doesn’t alter throughout life. Current gender ideology says that someone’s trans-ness can come and go (a surprise to most trans people from previous generations, I’d imagine), and goes back to extremely regressive ideas around “boys liking dresses = actually a trans girl/girls liking football = really a trans boy”. It’s not about supporting the wide variance we all have around sexual attraction, aesthetic presentation and personal feelings - it’s about telling someone they are “wrong” if they don’t fit a narrow 50s stereotype of gendering, but don’t worry! It can be fixed with surgery, hormones etc.

And as for teens “working it out themselves” - I don’t know about you, but my friends are I were fucking idiots at that age, and social pressures, social contagion, rebellion and the wild chemicals of a teen brain would have had us all on cocktails of medications that may have affected us for the rest of our lives, not to mention encouraging alienation from our parents and anyone who didn’t blindly follow us.

As I said, trans people deserve to live safe, happy lives, but that doesn’t mean teaching our Y8 daughters that (and I quote this from the Stonewall-provided PSHE lesson) “if you think there’s someone in the girls toilets who was born with a penis, ask yourself why you have a problem with it, and talk to your friends about how you can get over your own biases”. Wtf.