To be fed up with people misgendering DP (not trans)

[SarahAndQuack]

My partner is female, as am I, and we have a daughter who recently started school. DP has always had the odd person be confused about her gender, but when we got together there was a big surge in people assuming she was a man, and when DD was born, even more so. DD is nearly five now, and I still find people glance at DP and assume she's a man. I'm posting because one of the school mums - and DD goes to a tiny rural school so there are only a handful of us - has still not clocked that DP is a woman. I was at the school gate chatting and she asked about my husband, so I replied my partner's a woman, and she clearly didn't know what to say.

I find it frustrating because, if you actually bother to look at DP, you can see she's a woman. She always wears jeans or trousers (but women's jeans or trousers), and usually a shirt or a hoodie. Sometimes the shirts are from the menswear section, but the hoodies are generally Seasalt women's. Her hair is short, but so is mine, and no one ever mistakes me for a man. She wears unisex doc martens, but so do lots of women. She's all of 5'8 so not exactly a towering masculine height.

I am aware people misgender her mostly out of kneejerk, unconscious bias: they see one woman (me) and another person, and they automatically decide the other person must be a man. Or they see me and DD and decide the other person must be the dad.

But it's really starting to bother me, because DD is getting old enough to start wondering about what people say, and she is trying to understand what makes someone a man or a woman. She is getting a clear message that her mum is doing womanhood 'wrong', and that people don't think she is a woman, and she's started asking us why. I don't know what to say - and I don't know how to respond to people misgendering DP in a way that is still friendly, but does get across that it's not ok?

Is your DP upset because she gave birth to your dd?

Being upset about something that she can’t control, that has a lot to do with human unconscious bias - I would say there’s something more going on. Yes you could get the school mums to get it right eventually but there will always be a new setting where mistakes are made.

Not the same thing at all, but I am 6’1 and definitely feminine in my appearance but regularly get called Sir in shops and memorably one time at passport control when the border officer had my passport in front of them - she just clocked my height and their brain = man. I tend to correct them to madam and you see the almost panic stricken oh shit in their eyes when the actually look at me and then I get a embarrassed madam.

I agree with @MarleneDietrichsSmile (tall fist bump) people make short cut assumptions whilst they are thinking about all the other stuff going on in their lives.

Correct them (which is annoying that you have to) but hopefully they will have their own oh shit moment and not assume in future

I wonder if it's because so many people are trans nowadays that they think your DP might identify as a man? I only say this because I have known a few lesbian couples in the past where one of the partners is very butch and I don't recall them ever being mistaken for a man.

I am sorry your partner is experiencing this and that it is happening in different circumstances and happening repeatedly.

I think we humans, fill in the gaps about a lot of things. We make assumptions and then make the rest of the facts fit our initial assumptions until we are faced with evidence to reprogramme those initial connections that we have made in our brains. It takes a lot to reprogramme ... take learning spellings for example.. if we spell something wrong, it can take lots of practice and many ways of the same information being presented to teach children the correct way of spelling. We are socially conditioned to assume Mum and Dad... so if school parents know you as Mum... they fill in the gaps assuming that your husband is at work and cannot do the school run.. when 'he' turns up at school, 'he' fits with the mental picture the other parents have created in their head, even if 'he' is shorter and wearing more feminine clothing than they had expected... but as the first thing that popped into their head was there is Lucy's 'Dad'.. .. the questions / doubts / confusion that may be happening takes longer to resolve in their head than the initial assumption which is what comes out. Just keep laying clues out for other people to pick up on and hopefully things will change. I know you have had half a term already and it is frustrating and upsetting... but it will get better.

My daughter is a butch lesbian. She has never been properly mistaken for male when entering female spaces, though occasionally she has clocked people giving her a second glance as she enters women’s toilets. Nobody has challenged her and she sees them relax after that second glance. Her body is very obviously female.

She has increasingly noticed however, in non-segregated spaces, that people ask all the time for her pronouns. She recently told me she had been called “sir” on a plane. Of course it may be that someone only glanced very briefly, but there’s increasing pressure in society to assume that anyone dressing as the opposite sex wants to be seen as the opposite sex and that correctly sexing someone is terribly impolite.

My mother even quietly asked me recently about whether my daughter regarded herself as other than female. Presumably she wanted to get it right for my daughter’s wishes, so definitely not malicious.

So that might have a bearing, as well as it being related to people simply not looking properly and making assumptions after an inadequate glance.

No idea what can be done about it, but my daughter does find it frustrating when people assume she must be a transman.

@HikingforScenery

If your DP at first glance does ‘look like’a man, I’m not sure what else you can do apart from it taking time and people finding out you’re both women.

And what if she ‘looks like a man’? What does it even mean? That she is never wearing skirts or make up?

@AnyOldPrion that is very sad.

I suspect some people don’t want to get things wrong and it’s coming from the right place.

But automatically assuming that she is a transman is wrong, oh so wrong :(:(

Once when was about 10 a random man thought I was a boy and said "oh a lot of boys have long hair these days"

I was tiny and had waist length hair haha. That was a surprise

There's clearly something that's making lots of unrelated people misgender DP, whether assuming gender roles in relationships or her having a more masculine appearance than you realise. It does sound very hard though! In terms of school I would just be clear and straightforward and eventually they will catch on!

Haven't RTFT so apologies if this has been said.
The Methodist Church (which is in communion ie partnership with the CofE) marries same sex couples. Our local parish has teamed up with the Methodist church and now just refers same sex couples down the road to them.

My husband, when we were young, was very slender, not extraordinarily tall, and wore his hair in a ponytail. He would get called 'miss' a lot! (And yes, it annoyed him.)

Anyways, we had this book out from the library when my kid was small. It's a bit young for your DD though! www.amazon.co.uk/Mommy-Mama-ME-Leslea-Newman/dp/1582462631?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Just tell your dd it's nothing personal people don't pay that much attention most of the time cos they've got other things on their mind. No biggy, no need to think dp it's getting womanhood wrong. Can see its tedious for you though.

I have to say I’m at the number if people who say they care so little about other people that they can’t even make the effort to see if they have a man or a woman in front of them :( I mean it’s not that complicated really and lesbian couples are not that uncommon either.

I’m just as at people saying that the OP and her DP should just accept it as if the fact they are hurting people in the process (the OP’s DP but also their dd!) isn’t worth them making that tiny bit of effort to assess what sex the person in front of them is.

Astonishing the number of people on this thread who can't read. Or weigh in without having bothered to read. Sorry OP.

getting back to this a moment
I’d be more concerned that despite being a committed church goer, your church is so biased against same sex couples that they won’t allow you to marry!
I think it wasn't quite that simple - the CofE was split on the matter (partly because of ructions with the international 'Anglican communion') but as with taking so long to have women vicars and then bishops, they need a 2/3 majority to change anything like this. And because of the unique position as the Established church it was effectively roadblocking other denominations and religions from going ahead with religious marriages. So they, along with the church of wales, are currently barred from performing gay marriages as a way of circumventing the issue. It will take a change in canon law and legislation to alter this. It's not up to her own vicar, church or diocese. No idea if there's been any moves to get past this now....I suspect a long wait.
I'm just an interested bystander on this - an atheist brought up in the URC but in an ecumenical wider family inc CofE, Methodists and baptists - much more commonality than difference between them. If I had a friend in the OPs position I'd hope she could find an alternative, maybe one of the joint Methodist/CofE churches which do exist.

[quote SarahAndQuack]@Mammyloveswine - yes, various churches offer same-sex marriages. My friend who is Quaker is very keen to tell me I should get married![/quote]
Quakers don’t have a church.

Most people see what they expect to see, what they want to see, what they've been told to see, what conventional wisdom tells them to see - not what is right in front of them in its pristine condition.

Vincent Bugliosi

This is probably what's happening OP. Because the vast majority of people are straight (>90% I believe), heterosexuality is 'the norm' and most people who are in a relationship with DC will be a male/female couple. I have gay and lesbian friends, some of whom have DC, but when meeting someone new I still assume they're hetero unless told otherwise, because most people are and when most people say 'my DP', they mean their opposite sex DP.

Your DD has only been at the school for 8 weeks, I get that it's frustrating and upsetting you, but just keep reiterating that your DP is female and people will get it. The fact that some still don't know at least means you're not the object of gossip, which would be far worse! I think you can also start talking to your DD about different kinds of families too - let her know that most other families will have a mummy and a daddy - so this doesn't confuse her.

The lady in my corner shop where I used to live used to call me sir. Probably because I always popped in after the gym wearing a tracksuit ,but I was bemused because I'm 5ft tall and had really long hair . A diminished bon jovi maybe ?
I can see how this is annoying op and I'd be beyond the point of bemusement.
If someone hasn't ready suggested this I'd reply " what makes you think name is a man ?"

5’9” is the average height for a British man and the average British woman is 5’3”. Your DP (at 5’8”) is not far off the height of the average man, and she is really tall for a woman.

I’m not sure what “soft butch” means, but if she’s wearing jeans, baggy hoody and has short hair then at first glance she could look quite androgynous. Your Dd is new to the school so hopefully everyone will clock on soon and won’t keep making this mistake. I bet they feel quite embarrassed if they mis-gender your DP. I would be!

I understand what you mean OP. When I was younger I dated a woman who for lack of better words, was very stereotypically a lesbian. She had long hair that she wore in a ponytail but dressed very butch and was never mistaken for anything other than a lesbian. People just presumed that she was one. If she said something about a partner they’d automatically know she meant female one.

On the other hand, I, especially at the time, am very stereotypically femme. I had waist length long blonde hair, wore lots of makeup, wore pink dresses etc. You get my gist. We were very obviously a couple but people just could not comprehend that because I didn’t ‘look like someone who dated girls’.

She was never mistaken for a man but we could be out and about holding hands and people would mistake us for friends or sisters. If she told people I was her girlfriend they’d laugh and wouldn’t believe her. She’d make a reference and say “oh my girlfriend” whilst I was stood next to her and people would look around to try and locate her girlfriend. This was a few years ago though, I do wonder now with trans being pushed so far to the front of our minds if people would have mistaken her for a man, even though she so obviously wasn’t. I don’t think that helps things and I do think lesbians are kind of being left in the dark now.

People see what they’re expecting to see. I think some of the comments on this thread are rude though. People saying they can’t be bothered to take more than two seconds to look and analyse a situation, when they don’t realise they could be causing potential upset. If you’re not sure on something 100%, then maybe take more than two seconds to look because you could save yourself upsetting someone.

Also , if this is a small rural place with not much diversity maybe they are unsure and need spelling out " my partner is a woman, you've seen her on the school run , we're a gay couple "
They won't make the mistake again , they might be slightly embarrassed at their faux pas , and then you can move on .

I don’t think it’s fair to blame your daughter being upset on parents who have made innocent mistakes, which as you recognise, aren’t done maliciously.

Your daughter is at the age where they start noticing the similarities and differences between other children and themselves and other families and their own. It’s not reasonable to have expected her to go through childhood and starting school without ever being upset that her family is different, or without expressing the wish to have a daddy. Your daughters reactions seem entirely normal for a child in her circumstances.

Reading my own comment back, I wish I had used she more often.... I was trying to construct the narrative in someone else's head ... before they meet your partner..

As you say.. when people meet her on her own or with your DD, they are in no doubt that the is female and she is her DD's mother because all the clues available to them at that stage leave those fact in no doubt. It is only when they meet you first that the 'role' of Mum has been 'filled' that they assume she is male.

Sorry if my post was jarring as it referred to you partner wrongly so many times..

Keep correcting. I’m more confused by the fact that you still describe yourself as Cof E when they still won’t marry gay partners. Why would you want to be part of that church?

This is pretty embarrassing but my DS was at nursery with a boy with 2 Dads for years ad I didn’t twig. Two different men used to pick him up as well but I thought they were the same person even though in retrospect they didn’t look that similar. It was only when my DS started saying “why can’t I have two daddies” like X that I got it!

If I were you OP I wouldn’t call anyone out on it but say something completely unambiguous on the school WhatsApp as soon as possible. If a party or get together is organised reply with “Sounds good, I’ll just check with Sarah’s other Mummy and get back to you” even if it’s totally unnecessary.
If it were close to Mother’s Day you could say something about it being tough for children with two mummies to make cards for at school or something like that.

How annoying it must be, OP. I'm guessing it's a combination of the 'seeing what they expect to see' thing (i.e. man + woman + child) and the fact that your dp is dressing not super masculine, but not quite feminine enough to shake that initial assumption that she's a man because you're a woman. I'm not sure what you can do other than keep politely correcting though.