To be fed up with people misgendering DP (not trans)

[SarahAndQuack]

My partner is female, as am I, and we have a daughter who recently started school. DP has always had the odd person be confused about her gender, but when we got together there was a big surge in people assuming she was a man, and when DD was born, even more so. DD is nearly five now, and I still find people glance at DP and assume she's a man. I'm posting because one of the school mums - and DD goes to a tiny rural school so there are only a handful of us - has still not clocked that DP is a woman. I was at the school gate chatting and she asked about my husband, so I replied my partner's a woman, and she clearly didn't know what to say.

I find it frustrating because, if you actually bother to look at DP, you can see she's a woman. She always wears jeans or trousers (but women's jeans or trousers), and usually a shirt or a hoodie. Sometimes the shirts are from the menswear section, but the hoodies are generally Seasalt women's. Her hair is short, but so is mine, and no one ever mistakes me for a man. She wears unisex doc martens, but so do lots of women. She's all of 5'8 so not exactly a towering masculine height.

I am aware people misgender her mostly out of kneejerk, unconscious bias: they see one woman (me) and another person, and they automatically decide the other person must be a man. Or they see me and DD and decide the other person must be the dad.

But it's really starting to bother me, because DD is getting old enough to start wondering about what people say, and she is trying to understand what makes someone a man or a woman. She is getting a clear message that her mum is doing womanhood 'wrong', and that people don't think she is a woman, and she's started asking us why. I don't know what to say - and I don't know how to respond to people misgendering DP in a way that is still friendly, but does get across that it's not ok?

Op you need to teach your kid not to give a fuck what other people think maybe start by aligning yourself with a church that doesn’t reject your family

Are you assuming people care? I don't mean that nastily just I talk to people in the school line and they tell me things that I never intend to recall ever again. I have no recollection of their names even..I'd probably keep on misgendering someone purely because I couldn't remember if they'd corrected me before.

Utterly bizarre! I don't get how people can make this mistake??

I know loads of gay couples who have never had this issue, even when one half of the couple is more masculine/feminine.

Obviously I can't know for certain, but I've never misgendered someone... Other than a small boy from afar who had his hair in a messy bun on the top of his head...he was only about 6 and this was from afar (I was taking their order at the till in a pub and trying to figure out which table the customer was referring to)

Humans, particularly females, can accurately identify the sex of other people nearly all the time

Sorry but I agree with this. I think adults have to try quite hard to hide their biological sex, those who are most successful are those on hormones/post surgery. It's not about short hair or masculine clothes. It's things like bone structure - brow ridges etc, Adam's apples, hips, gait patterns.

I don't see why two women being with a child would lead to one being identified as the wrong sex, particularly if as you say your wife doesnt look male. I would have thought most people would jump far more readily to the conclusion that one of the women is a friend or sister as opposed to a partner.

Maybe it's you being at the school gates a lot and being alone wiht DD alot and wearing dresses a lot - I only know one person that wears dresses (partly because we are in Scotland and it's too cold) - I'm assuming this is the case as it sounds from what you say that it is you they are making the misgendering mistakes to , or are they misgendering her to her face? It sounds like you are the one they know, not her and if they knew her would realise she is female.

I don't reckon they're actually mistaking her for a man, I think they think she's trans so they're 'being kind' and using male pronouns. I'd make a point of saying 'my wife' in a few conversations for a few weeks and let it spread around that a bit that she isn't a transman.

Almostmenopausal
I mean this in the kindest tone possible, but if your girlfriend dresses in a way that is common for men to dress, then it's human nature for people to assume they are a man. If you are certain these are genuine mistakes then I don't see how you can be annoyed about it.

*I'm genuinely not mocking your girlfriend or your situation; but if I was a very feminine looking man and began wearing floral dresses for instance, then it would be perfectly understandable (and you could even say expected) for some people to assume I was a woman? Would it not? thanks

I don’t think it’s that simple. I wear either jeans, dungarees/jumpsuits and trainers or boots and don’t own a dress or skirt but no one ever in 60 years has assumed I’m male.

I don't see why two women being with a child would lead to one being identified as the wrong sex, particularly if as you say your wife doesnt look male. I would have thought most people would jump far more readily to the conclusion that one of the women is a friend or sister as opposed to a partner.

I would agree with this. And especially when it’s a waitress in a cafe. Young mums are very often out with a female friend or relative.

D's will be bothered about it because it's not the norm at her age and experience. Most families n her school will have a mum and dad living together, and the younger your child is the more likely that their parents are still together as a biological family unit.

I assume you be talked to her a lot about your family unit, and as she gets older more and more of her classmates will be experiencing moving away from " the norm, with step parents, single parents, other homosexual parents etc.

"My partner doesn't present herself in a masculine way."

Yes she does.

You just can't see it, or don't want to see it. But she clearly does. Laughing at pp who said Most primary mums don't care : are either too menopausal, sleep deprived or knackered from working and getting to the school run, to care who is picking your DD up from school.

But this keeps happening. So there clearly is an issue.

Nothing happened so I went to enquire, and they assumed I was the mum in labour. DP thinks this is hilarious but I am still absolutely fucking furious that she didn't get a meal in 24 hours of labour, and then on the post-delivery ward they kicked up a stink about me getting her a meal because women aren't allowed to get food for their partners.

You are a size 12 so obviously don't look pregnant walking around normally but the staff on the labour ward assumed you were in labour and asking for food for your male partner?

Food is brought to the patients beds so how did they miss your DP as I assume she was lying on the bed heavily pregnant and in labour.
I have given birth in hospital 3 times, is tea and toast no longer standard after giving birth? It's the first thing tbe nurses offered me after I gave birth. Best toast EVER.

I find it odd that staff on a labour ward and on the post natal ward assumed the size 12 woman walking about normally was pregnant or had just given birth. Especially as the majority of women on both those wards are usually in PJs/dressing gowns and not walking around normally!

On the subject of people being able to spot the sex of a person, I watched an episode of Ambulance recently where one of the paramedics is a transman who works alongside their real life partner. They had a bit of a beard and a flat chest. In the beginning, it wasn’t pointed out that they were trans, but my dh said - that’s a woman. I agreed that they could be female - there was just something about them that pointed to them being female. They were on a call to an elderly woman who’d had a fall. Both paramedics were wearing face masks so the beard wasn’t visible. The patient referred to the transman as ‘she’ saying something along the lines of ‘ooh shes lovely’ to the other paramedic. Another comment was made along the lines of ‘yes he is’ and the patient said sorry, she thought the transman was a lady. Cue embarrassed looks between the paramedics! The patient was very apologetic.
I just thought it was very interesting that they had been clocked by an elderly person who probably knows nothing about being transgender.

Anyway OP, people see what they see, they make assumptions based on all sorts of things. The default where a child has 2 parents is for those parents to be a hetero couple, and if one of them ‘looks male’, people will often assume they are. You have the advantage of knowing your partner isn’t male. I’ve been a teacher for 30 years, and can count on 2 hands the number of same sex parents I’ve come across in my career. To be frank, I’d be more concerned that despite being a committed church goer, your church is so biased against same sex couples that they won’t allow you to marry!

If your DP is wearing jeans, boots, mens shirts and wearing her hair short then yes, some people will misgender her.

Some women do appear more masculine than others and if your DP is one of them, coupled with the choice of clothing, then you can't really blame folk for getting it wrong.

So YABU and the issue is your DPs to resolve

@SarahAndQuack

I'm actually curious *@Winniemarysarah* - can you point me to the post that made you think we were the same height, or wore similar clothes, or had similar appearances?

I think, OP, this experience ^ holds part of the answer.

People make stuff up to fill in the gaps in their knowledge without knowing they are doing it and then act on their imaginary “knowledge”. When you’re out with your DP and DD:

• some people will clock you, in your dresses, and make the assumption the other person must be a bloke because this is the most common family pattern. Those people, if your DP also had long hair and was wearing a dress, might also assume you were sisters or friends and not a couple.

• some people may genuinely perceive your DP to be male. I’m a little sceptical because as you have already said she is not mis-sexed when on her own with DD.

• some people may perceive your DP as a butch-presenting female and think she may be trans, so are trying to be kind.

I can see why the whole thing is wearing for you both.

Op i dont know how to say this because you seem so upset by it all but even listing the way your DP doesn't look like a man, ie your comparison of the clothes women can sometimes wear etc, and the fact you both have short hair etc ... I don't think it's automatically that people see you and your DP togather and think man woman, I honestly think there's a chance that she just looks like a man. And it's terrible people don't all know, more because by now they should know you both personally now because you're a member of the school community, in the same way people see me and say hi stay at Homer or see dh and say hi mr stay at Homer, but I honestly do not know every single person at our (small country school's) gates, and they wouldn't all know my dh (and I'm honestlythe worst person for not knowingpeopl, I work in a shop and some customerscall me by my first name and it turns out apparently we know each other!!) . If the lady was confused when you told her, then she just didn't know. And hugs op, because you sound lovely and so upset, but as for your child, the 3 of you just need to have a chat, and it definitely doesn't need to be a big deal, but you and your other half need to talk first about it because there's no need for your child to think there's bias against her mum or you as a couple. Hope this post is okay, I'm bad at saying things correctly on mn but you just sounded so upset

@SomePosters
People regularly misgender people, especially if the dont perform their gender in the expected way

Interesting that you use the word ‘perform’ in relation to gender. Many trans people would say that gender is innate, and absolutely NOT a performance. Personally, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head!

I don't reckon they're actually mistaking her for a man, I think they think she's trans so they're 'being kind' and using male pronouns. I'd make a point of saying 'my wife' in a few conversations for a few weeks and let it spread around that a bit that she isn't a transman.

There could be something in that. In a desperate attempt to try not to misgender your partner, they are actually misgendering her.

Keep patiently correcting them (and after a while feel free to angrily correct them), they should feel very embarrassed. Maybe tell the school as well?

In a way it shows his deep rooted the idea of how a woman should look is, but then, ironically you add a bit to that yourself by saying your partner does not have a masculine height (therefore implying women my height (6ft+) have a “masculine height” … not having a go at you at all, just showing we all make assumptions

Misgendering really hurts (I hated being asked if I was a boy or a girl) so I do hope it get sorted out

I understand your concern but it isn't an unreasonable assumption that two people with a child are a man and a woman if one dresses in what could be male clothes and the other doesn't. I live in a large city and have sometimes seen couples like this, where on looking more closely, I realise they are both women. If both dressed / looked more like typical women it wouldn't happen. (Not suggesting your partner should change her appearance.)

I recently had a similar experience. I took my 16 yo dd to a hair salon I have not used before. The person doing her hair looked very much like a woman at first sight - dressed in trousers but also a long flowing cardigan, and had long curly hair. At first I only noticed that their voice was unusually deep for a woman, but as I sat next to dd as she had her hair cut, I realised they were also extremely tall. It took me a few minutes of covertly studying their figure to conclude it was a man. It really was hard to tell and I wondered if they wanted to be seen as a woman (trans) or not. I didn't find out their name so couldn't use that as a possible clue.

When I mentioned it afterwards to my dd though, she was quite clear that she had realised they were male and didn't feel that he was trying to look like a woman at all.....! Maybe different generational expectations?! (Or just being a teen and contradicting me.....)

I'm in a similar situation although our daughter is now in her teens.

I would suggest having a christmas party for the kids, hire a local church hall or something, you'll both be there milling about with mince pies and mulled wine for the parents and everyone will get it, we done this when our child started in reception in small village school.

Outside of the school setting I would gently say 'she' or 'her' to people making stereotypical assumptions and if they still didn't get it I'd say 'my partner is woman, *Lucy has two mum's'

I remember my daughter calling me daddy once it was hilarious we all laughed and she said she wanted to see how it sounded to say those words.
She is now at the age where she's wearing jeans, shorter hair, DMs etc and doesn't care what people think or say. She does enjoy seeing the shock on some people's faces when she tells them she has two mum's and that no she does not have a dad.

My cousin has this issue as well, she had even been on the receiving end of verbal and physical abuse just for using a public toilet.

Ignorance is a choice, sadly it isn’t something anyone else can solve or have any control over. Sadly the ignorant tend to enjoy being rather vocal.

I wonder whether emphasising that she was the one who was pregnant would help people put her in the right box more. 'Oh yes I am Sarah and Quack's other mother is 'Jane', I tend to do most of the pickups but considering she did the whole pregnancy and birth thing I think it is a good deal!'

It sounds really false writing it down but some sort of variation on that. It answers questions and makes it quite clear to the person. Obviously not to the person in the coffee shop, tmi, but to people at the school gates. Also your partner being more involved in the school so having a higher profile as Jane, Quack's mum than you with the parents. Obviously your partner might prefer to stick pins in her eyes than volunteer to wrap presents for the Christmas fair, but don't we all! Also on the WhatsApp group always 'hi it's Jane, Quack's mum, just checking if anyone has taken home her jumper by mistake'. This of course has the added bonus for you of getting out of some of the shool/ pta drudgery whilst still supporting the school as a family. At this stage it is still early on and half the parents are still trying to figure out which child matches which parent, I can see though it must be very annoying for you all.

It is clear that your DP does not look like a man as no one does this to her when she is on her own. It is people not really looking and seeing what they expect to see.

I think that you do need to make it clear that your partner is female and also your DDs mum as it is upsetting for her. You are going to spend quite a bit of time with these people so it is important that they recognise your family.

My friend is a reverend in the United Reform Church and a lesbian and same sex marriage is recognised in that church too but I fully understand that you are holding out to get married in your own church. Hopefully that will happen soon.

My DD - tall and well built, a swimmer - was regularly mistaken at first glance for a man when working in an outdoor job wearing jeans and boots and with a short haircut. She realised that it was a natural mistake to make, most people realised on a second glance that she was a woman and were apologetic. It wasn’t worth getting upset about.