Fed up with unvaccinated colleague isolating

[Peevedcolleague]

Name changed 'cos I'll probably get slated but aibu to be pissed off about a colleague self isolating yet again while the rest of us have to carry on and pick up the pieces?

A new colleague chose not to be jabbed and is now facing numerous isolation periods at home on full pay where the rest of us have to carry on and cover her workload. Nature of the job means she's likely to be a close contact fairly regularly.

Even if she changed her mind and gets jabbed tomorrow, it'll be 10 weeks minimum before she's exempt from isolation so this could happen several more times yet.

Aibu to feel resentful and wish she bloody well got jabbed like the rest of us?

It’s a difficult situation but the rights of one group don’t trump another. All that can be done is to offer the vaccine and the info to support individuals to make the choice to have it but you simply can’t force people

It's not a question of forcing people to have the vaccine. It's a question of requiring it for jobs working directly with patients.

Jobs have a right to ask for specific requirements. No one is forced to learn to drive, but there are many jobs from which you are excluded unless you can drive.

You can't be a doctor or a nurse unless you undergo a sustained period of study and pass certain exams. That is not the same as forcing the entire population to study medicine or nursing.

For many hospital jobs, people may be required to accept shift work or very unsocial hours. Many people can't or won't work such hours; therefore they don't take such jobs.

And yes, I think that if different groups' rights come into conflict, the rights of those who are most vulnerable, and for whom the issue could be one of life or death, do trump those of the others.

Genuinely think the general public don’t appreciate how much effort hcp put into keeping patients safe. The rules surrounding vaccinations are there so they don’t put you at risk.

You don’t deserve a healthcare service.

On that case maybe they need to make it a choice for those already in nhs/care jobs and for anyone new it’s a requirement as those already working in these areas didn’t agree to it as a condition when they started their careers

So where something wasn't a condition when someone started employment and then becomes so, this should be a choice? What about any other changes to Health and Safety (which changes regularly) - these should be a choice too as they weren't in place at the start of employment?

@over50andfab

On that case maybe they need to make it a choice for those already in nhs/care jobs and for anyone new it’s a requirement as those already working in these areas didn’t agree to it as a condition when they started their careers

So where something wasn't a condition when someone started employment and then becomes so, this should be a choice? What about any other changes to Health and Safety (which changes regularly) - these should be a choice too as they weren't in place at the start of employment?

Yes, a bit like how the benefit cap for 2 dc was done- with children born after a certain date but those before that cut off still allowed to be on the claim

Why not strongly advise existing healthcare workers to be vaccinated and then say all entering the profession from a certain date need to be vaccinated so that people can decide whether they want to be in that line if work or not but it doesn’t penalise those already in it but not wanting to be vaccinated

That doesn’t stop patients being at risk. That patient could be you or any other human being who wants to live being harmed by the actions of a health professional.

Things change, we didn’t wear plastic aprons when I started unless you were doing wound care, not all clinics had sterilisers & hand gel was for DN/CN only. We merrily went home in our uniforms. Things change. I can’t say well I joined in 2000 so you can shove your plastic apron & I’ll be wearing my uniform round Waitrose later because I’m out of coffee beans for the morning.

@Fluffycloudland77

That doesn’t stop patients being at risk. That patient could be you or any other human being who wants to live being harmed by the actions of a health professional.

Things change, we didn’t wear plastic aprons when I started unless you were doing wound care, not all clinics had sterilisers & hand gel was for DN/CN only. We merrily went home in our uniforms. Things change. I can’t say well I joined in 2000 so you can shove your plastic apron & I’ll be wearing my uniform round Waitrose later because I’m out of coffee beans for the morning.

Oh I totally understand your perspective

We just can’t force people to have a vaccine they don’t want if they decline it, and threatening the loss of their job/career is wrong. It does seem there are going to be a lot of people who reject the vaccine losing their jobs and of the number is significant then that also puts patients at risk

We just can’t force people to have a vaccine they don’t want if they decline it, and threatening the loss of their job/career is wrong.

Is it a greater or lesser wrong than putting patients’ lives at increased risk?

I’m honestly interested in others’ perspectives on where the balance of rights sit here; I recognise my own are inevitably coloured by coming from a country where vaccination was required to access education.

@JassyRadlett

We just can’t force people to have a vaccine they don’t want if they decline it, and threatening the loss of their job/career is wrong.

Is it a greater or lesser wrong than putting patients’ lives at increased risk?

I’m honestly interested in others’ perspectives on where the balance of rights sit here; I recognise my own are inevitably coloured by coming from a country where vaccination was required to access education.

The odd thing about this vaccine that really makes it so confusing is that it doesn’t stop transmission so even if every HCP willingly went and got vaccinated are vulnerable patients actually any more protected ?

It then comes down to the benefit on the individual that the vaccine reduces the likelihood of being seriously ill / hospitalised. So for all those saying people should be vaccinated to protect others - does it protect others ?

The odd thing about this vaccine that really makes it so confusing is that it doesn’t stop transmission so even if every HCP willingly went and got vaccinated are vulnerable patients actually any more protected ?

That’s not really true. We know that the combination of vaccines we have prevent the majority of infections. With delta and waning, AZ (two doses) looks like it’s dipped below 50% prevention; Moderna and Pfizer are still much higher at preventing infection (and therefore onward transmission is reduced due to avoided infection).

Some interesting emerging studies from the Netherlands and the US that suggest that transmission from infected vaccinated people may be up to 63% lower in a Delta environment; however other studies haven’t seen the same reductions so we can’t be sure.

This idea that the vaccines don’t prevent any infection or transmission isn’t grounded in reality and it’s odd that it’s gained such hold.

I can understand much greater levels of resistance to vaccine passports if people truly believe that the vaccines have no impact on infection or transmission.

But then I find that odd in itself too-if the vaccines were really halting transmission then yes the argument that everyone should be vaccinated for herd immunity/to protect the vulnerable would be strong. Those who didn’t want to would be seen as very selfish.

So now we have a vaccine that doesn’t stop transmission but does lower it. But it seems the vaccine is more effective for the individual as it reduces the risk of severe illness / hospitalisation more than it reduces the risk of transmission?

I think people assume that ‘anti vaxxers’ in general or in this case a lot of people who have had other vaccinations but are wary of this one are selfish as they won’t have the vaccine for the greater good but they also won’t have it to protect themselves ? This strikes me as very strange especially when we’ve seen how dangerous covid can be yet there’s an equal fear of the vaccine as there is of covid itself for a group of people ? Now we have a lot of HCP being vocal that they don’t want to have it and I’d assume they have seen more of the devastation covid has caused than the rest of us ? I find it all quite confusing!

The lack of faith in science as well - why?? So, so many people I’ve spoken to seem to think it’s a great conspiracy of some sort and the bast majority of them were people I honestly considered level headed and intelligent so what on earth is going on I don’t know! I find it all interesting but worrying at the same time

So now we have a vaccine that doesn’t stop transmission but does lower it. But it seems the vaccine is more effective for the individual as it reduces the risk of severe illness / hospitalisation more than it reduces the risk of transmission?

That’s always been the case; it was just at the start the impact on infection/transmission was much closer to the reductions in severe illness and death.

The great news is that boosters look like taking us to even higher levels of protection than we’ve ever had, including against alpha, and recent suggestions that protection may last for longer too.

So if we’re back to over 90% protection from infection with delta, as a result of boosters, I can absolutely understand people saying they don’t want their loved ones in a care home being cared for by a person who likely poses a higher risk of infection to them.

Is there a general cut off date for when hcp have to be vaccinated by or does ot vary by area / hospital / care home

I believe it is April for frontline NHS.

For care home workers it was last week.

@ddl1

It’s a difficult situation but the rights of one group don’t trump another. All that can be done is to offer the vaccine and the info to support individuals to make the choice to have it but you simply can’t force people

It's not a question of forcing people to have the vaccine. It's a question of requiring it for jobs working directly with patients.

Jobs have a right to ask for specific requirements. No one is forced to learn to drive, but there are many jobs from which you are excluded unless you can drive.

You can't be a doctor or a nurse unless you undergo a sustained period of study and pass certain exams. That is not the same as forcing the entire population to study medicine or nursing.

For many hospital jobs, people may be required to accept shift work or very unsocial hours. Many people can't or won't work such hours; therefore they don't take such jobs.

And yes, I think that if different groups' rights come into conflict, the rights of those who are most vulnerable, and for whom the issue could be one of life or death, do trump those of the others.

Sorry but you can’t compare getting someone to administer an injection into your body to any of your examples.

Driving, choosing a job with shifts, passing exams are all within your own control. It’s nothing like getting something you have no knowledge of being injected into you. It’s fine to trust that it works but there’s also been a massive range of affects from nothing at all to really ill after it. You couldn’t predict who would or wouldn’t react.

I’m getting my third booster tonight. I also get Botox injected. But I would never say that a vaccine that is new should be a requirement of a job. I don’t care if myself or parents are treated by unvaccinated care workers. It is about state vs personal choice at the end of the day.

Quite simply people who are vaccinated or not I ask that they wear a mask if they can if they have to come in my home and to re-book if they have signs of illness to be safe whether they are vaccinated or not, as long as they wear a mask and take what precautions they can. There is still a risk from those vaccinated and I wish those that are vaccinated would remember that because I have come across people saying it's alright I'm vaccinated you won't get it from me, and getting funny with me about my request and treating me as if I'm crazy but to be honest I don't care what people think when the danger is still there and it's such a simple precaution to wear a mask why take the risk. As for side effects from the vaccine I know they exist not from sources on the internet but from personal experience, with people I know, and their families, it has to be up to the individual to decide. I would much rather have to deal with someone who hasn't the vaccine who is still willing to take precautions than someone who turns around and is cocky with me telling me they have been vaccinated so they don't need to. I have no problem with those who can't wear a mask and we just take other precautions. If I get it I know I don't stand much chance. Even my dad wears a mask around me and he chooses to and we mainly go outside for walks etc because he knows the risk to me. I am ECV and can't have the vaccine anyway, but what worries me the most the NHS is already short staffed, forcing people out of the job because they haven't had the vaccine will make things worse and will have more of a detrimental effect than them wearing a mask and taking precautions.

Arguing that forced sterilisation and abortion are in the same vein as a vaccine is nothing but Godwin's Law in action.

Forced sterilisation happens in the UK. In 2015 a woman with LD and 6 kids. That one got into the press but others are less "remarkable". This has happened as a public health policy within living memory. Many of us remember when the "feeble minded" (those with LD) weren't even "allowed" to have sex. The Care in the Community Act was only 1990. The predecessors to that were vast institutions (now luxury flats) where poor care and abuses of human rights were common enough to change the law. There is an argument, by some, for sterilisation for families that transmit Huntingdon's Chorea, though it is certainly not called that.

To think that only terrible things were perpetrated somehow "over there" by "those people" and "in the past" is to blind ourselves to what is done, by us, right now.

Schrodingersbiscuit - if the transmission of disease is due to staffing ratios (and there is a strong argument there) we need to sort that, not take the few precious staff we do have and rob them of their rights. They are being taught to-, and expected to respect the rights of their patients to choices over their bodies.

I would rather be cared for by someone who is skilled and competent where respect for their body is enshrined in policy and law, as they are much more likely to respect mine.

We in our trust are struggling for staff as is the care services and community care one has a knock on effect on the others

We had staff that went above and beyond their jobs for months during the first and second waves the carried on regardless of their anxiety and remained professional throughout

We will loose some fantastic staff which is really sad to see this impacts care and staff that are left we are struggling as it is

I hold no grudge or anger towards staff who choose not to vaccinate.

@user5464

Arguing that forced sterilisation and abortion are in the same vein as a vaccine is nothing but Godwin's Law in action.

Forced sterilisation happens in the UK. In 2015 a woman with LD and 6 kids. That one got into the press but others are less "remarkable". This has happened as a public health policy within living memory. Many of us remember when the "feeble minded" (those with LD) weren't even "allowed" to have sex. The Care in the Community Act was only 1990. The predecessors to that were vast institutions (now luxury flats) where poor care and abuses of human rights were common enough to change the law. There is an argument, by some, for sterilisation for families that transmit Huntingdon's Chorea, though it is certainly not called that.

To think that only terrible things were perpetrated somehow "over there" by "those people" and "in the past" is to blind ourselves to what is done, by us, right now.

Schrodingersbiscuit - if the transmission of disease is due to staffing ratios (and there is a strong argument there) we need to sort that, not take the few precious staff we do have and rob them of their rights. They are being taught to-, and expected to respect the rights of their patients to choices over their bodies.

I would rather be cared for by someone who is skilled and competent where respect for their body is enshrined in policy and law, as they are much more likely to respect mine.

I think I read the court report on this case the woman was autistic wasn’t she and had had multiple c sections plus one concealed birth where they queried had bbq tongs been used as makeshift forceps ? A terrible case and handled so badly by authorities for it to get to that stage. If she had been supported earlier you can really see from reading it how the forced sterilisation could have been avoided and her distress minimised

Driving, choosing a job with shifts, passing exams are all within your own control.

Not everyone can drive or pass exams, so those who can't do one of these things will be excluded from these jobs through no choice of their own.

It’s nothing like getting something you have no knowledge of being injected into you. It’s fine to trust that it works but there’s also been a massive range of affects from nothing at all to really ill after it. You couldn’t predict who would or wouldn’t react.

No knowledge? You can find out if you wish to. And it is very rare for side effects to be worse than those of Covid itself!

There is, by the way, a lot more evidence that shift work is associated with increased risk for a variety of serious illnesses, than that vaccines are:

www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/features/shift-work

I’m getting my third booster tonight. I also get Botox injected. But I would never say that a vaccine that is new should be a requirement of a job. I don’t care if myself or parents are treated by unvaccinated care workers. It is about state vs personal choice at the end of the day.

Sorry - the paragraph beginning 'I'm getting my third booster tonight' was the PP's paragraph, to which I was replying: I do bloody care whether I or my family members are treated by unvaccinated care workers! But I spent many years in close to self-isolation conditions, because of the dangers of infecting an immunosuppressed parent, so I may feel unusually strongly about it!

....handled so badly by authorities for it to get to that stage. If she had been supported earlier you can really see from reading it how the forced sterilisation could have been avoided ...

YES! Poor government policy must not be visited upon the wider population. The mis-handling of the woman's care in the above case left her having to deal with the consequences in the most serious of ways. The individual not the government.

This is much more about under-staffing, under-training and under-supervision than it is under-vaccination.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/21/icu-is-full-of-the-unvaccinated-my-patience-with-them-is-wearing-thin

This article discusses the impact on other people of being unvaccinated!

I think this is unfair tbh as there is no context about this persons individual circumstances. I am currently pregnant (5 months) and just had my second dose. I delayed my second dose as when I had my first dose I had just conceived and miscarried that pregnancy the next day. After already having a septic miscarriage at 11 weeks earlier in the year l, whereby I was hospitalised for a week (at that point pregnant women were not advised to vaccinate) I decided to put off my second dose until my pregnancy is viable. As soon as I have reached 23 weeks I have got vaccinated. Yes I have had to isolate when I got pinged this year but so have many others. But I have done what I feel is right in a difficult situation. Do you think I am a terrible person for putting my babies health first given my experience? Do you think my team will all be thinking negative thoughts about me because I isolated for a week? I don’t actually care tbh because I am determined to do what is right for my family. I have been extremely careful not to expose others to covid this entire pandemic by limiting contact and following the rules to the letter.