Fed up with unvaccinated colleague isolating

[Peevedcolleague]

Name changed 'cos I'll probably get slated but aibu to be pissed off about a colleague self isolating yet again while the rest of us have to carry on and pick up the pieces?

A new colleague chose not to be jabbed and is now facing numerous isolation periods at home on full pay where the rest of us have to carry on and cover her workload. Nature of the job means she's likely to be a close contact fairly regularly.

Even if she changed her mind and gets jabbed tomorrow, it'll be 10 weeks minimum before she's exempt from isolation so this could happen several more times yet.

Aibu to feel resentful and wish she bloody well got jabbed like the rest of us?

@Beachcomber not saying I want him to struggle through life just that it's in the past, can't change it so we make the best of it.

@Beachcomber

That doesn't mean they should have the right to do whatever job they want or to enter any private business they want.

What, even if they have had covid and are immune to it?

Someone who has had it isn't necessarily immune. I appreciate that may be true if they are vaccinated but there is more chance that they are immune. Regardless, nobody has the right to work in a particular workplace and if the rules at the moment are that unvaccinated people have to isolate why should businesses keep employing them?

but there is more chance that they are immune.

Not according to the recent studies I have been reading and have linked to on this thread.

Here's another one.

our data show immune memory in at least three immunological compartments was measurable in ~95% of subjects 5 to 8 months PSO, indicating that durable immunity against secondary COVID-19 disease is a possibility in most individuals.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7919858/

Yup I’m pissed off aswell. I work in a hospital and sick of staff isolating because they choose not to be vaccinated leaving us more understaffed than we already were. Absolute piss take, and they’re on full pay aswell 😡 😤

Yes that would really piss me off.

So I was just talking about this with someone who said that there is no evidence that the vaccine reduces transmission, just that it reduces hospital admissions, serious illness and deaths. So, if that’s the case, I don’t understand why decisions on what people do is guided by their vaccine status. What’s the point?

I’m vaccinated but still caught it and would still, presumably, have been infectious? What’s the rationale for enforcing vaccines just in terms of access? Is it just a way of forcing people to have the vaccine because otherwise their choices will be limited. In which case that seems pretty draconian. Being vaccinated didn’t make me less of a risk to others, just less personal risk, surely?

@Suspiciousmind20

So I was just talking about this with someone who said that there is no evidence that the vaccine reduces transmission, just that it reduces hospital admissions, serious illness and deaths. So, if that’s the case, I don’t understand why decisions on what people do is guided by their vaccine status. What’s the point?

I’m vaccinated but still caught it and would still, presumably, have been infectious? What’s the rationale for enforcing vaccines just in terms of access? Is it just a way of forcing people to have the vaccine because otherwise their choices will be limited. In which case that seems pretty draconian. Being vaccinated didn’t make me less of a risk to others, just less personal risk, surely?

Your someone is wrong. There's enough data that it reduces transmission.

@Suspiciousmind20

So I was just talking about this with someone who said that there is no evidence that the vaccine reduces transmission, just that it reduces hospital admissions, serious illness and deaths. So, if that’s the case, I don’t understand why decisions on what people do is guided by their vaccine status. What’s the point?

I’m vaccinated but still caught it and would still, presumably, have been infectious? What’s the rationale for enforcing vaccines just in terms of access? Is it just a way of forcing people to have the vaccine because otherwise their choices will be limited. In which case that seems pretty draconian. Being vaccinated didn’t make me less of a risk to others, just less personal risk, surely?

Good lord, why are people still saying this?

I honestly feel like covid has exposed a huge ignorance in the population, so many people talk utter nonsense.

Your someone is wrong. There's enough data that it reduces transmission.

Correct, including the article I linked to up thread. It's a less dramatic reduction with delta than with alpha because delta is so bloody contagious. And it stands to reason that if you clear the virus sooner you'll expose fewer people to it.

Being vaccinated didn’t make me less of a risk to others, just less personal risk, surely?

People who are vaccinated are less likely to be seriously ill and end up in hospital - therefore, there are more beds for those who have suffered a heart attack, cancer, a car accident, etc. That is how there is less risk to other people - those who are at risk of preventable deaths at home or in an ambulance, because there are no hospital bed!

@OhWhyNot

Rules of what ?

I’ve never seen rules that if you do not vaccinate you self isolate

"When to self-isolate and what to do - Coronavirus (COVID-19) - NHS" www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/self-isolation-and-treatment/when-to-self-isolate-and-what-to-do/ There you go

WildExcuses no, it’s not just “my issue”. Not getting vaccinated might well be a personal, individual decision but it has negative consequences on all of us. It also has direct, negative consequences for the OP and her team at work with this persons constant absences. It’s selfish.

"Being vaccinated didn’t make me less of a risk to others, just less personal risk, surely?"

Not sure people waiting hours and hours for an ambulance after heart attacks, strokes whatever and then stuck in ambulances outside the hospital would agree with you.

Plus of course you are more likely to infect strangers or colleagues etc.

Good lord, why are people still saying this?

I honestly feel like covid has exposed a huge ignorance in the population, so many people talk utter nonsense.

Agreed. The joke is they all think they are really clever and know something the scientists don't due to their extensive "research" on the Internet.

@Belladonna12

Good lord, why are people still saying this?

I honestly feel like covid has exposed a huge ignorance in the population, so many people talk utter nonsense.

Agreed. The joke is they all think they are really clever and know something the scientists don't due to their extensive "research" on the Internet.

Ah, that old chestnut. "Do your research". Beloved of the Us for Them lunatics amongst others

[quote Beachcomber]but there is more chance that they are immune.

Not according to the recent studies I have been reading and have linked to on this thread.

Here's another one.

our data show immune memory in at least three immunological compartments was measurable in ~95% of subjects 5 to 8 months PSO, indicating that durable immunity against secondary COVID-19 disease is a possibility in most individuals.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7919858/[/quote]
That study hasn't compared immune response in people who have been infected with Covid 19 with those who have been vaccinated. It just states that durable immunity is a "possibility".

@Suspiciousmind20

So I was just talking about this with someone who said that there is no evidence that the vaccine reduces transmission, just that it reduces hospital admissions, serious illness and deaths. So, if that’s the case, I don’t understand why decisions on what people do is guided by their vaccine status. What’s the point?

I’m vaccinated but still caught it and would still, presumably, have been infectious? What’s the rationale for enforcing vaccines just in terms of access? Is it just a way of forcing people to have the vaccine because otherwise their choices will be limited. In which case that seems pretty draconian. Being vaccinated didn’t make me less of a risk to others, just less personal risk, surely?

This probably underlines the importance of checking for yourself, rather than getting your information secondhand and taking it as gospel.

For the record (and thanks to others who have also picked this up!):

1. The vaccines prevent the majority of infections, even with delta. This at least halves the overall risk of vaccinated people vs unvaccinated.

1. The picture on secondary transmission is more mixed. Evidence suggests that with delta, the risk of secondary transmission to close household contacts (the highest risk of transmission) is about the same as an unvaccinated person. However, recent studies out of the Netherlands and the US found that overall secondary transmission from vaccinated infected people was up to 63% lower than unvaccinated.

1. This has been covered multiple times on this thread already.

Ah, that old chestnut. "Do your research". Beloved of the Us for Them lunatics amongst others.

To be fair, the post was responding to a factually inaccurate statement about the vaccines in an area that is not even remotely contentious.

So in this particular case, doing the research would have put the poster straight about the wrong information they had been given.

no, it’s not just “my issue”. Not getting vaccinated might well be a personal, individual decision but it has negative consequences on all of us. It also has direct, negative consequences for the OP and her team at work with this persons constant absences. It’s selfish.

It’s a decision people are allowed to make. It’s the employer that needs to address the workload so that it doesn’t result in more work for OP and her team.

My uncle got lung cancer having never smoked in his life, he was just unlucky. He still had to wait for an operation, on a waiting list behind smokers. Their personal decision to smoke had a negative consequence on my uncle. He waited longer to be diagnosed, waited longer to have his OP. He never once moaned because he accepted that people are free to make their own decisions. Should we hate all smokers because they make waiting lists longer or take up beds or resources? I don’t think so.
I don’t see it as any different just because covid is contagious. Lots of things that people are free to do cause a negative consequence to others. It makes no sense that not having a vaccination is singled out as selfish when other things people do are not.

Oh yes about self isolating if someone you live with at home may have/has Covid but how often can that can be used

I don’t know anyone who still uses track and trace now

I have colleagues who have chosen not to be vaccinated no one is taking the piss around self isolating (though some where before the vaccines came in)

Sadly we shall be short staffed soon. I know people who went above and beyond beyond their roles during lockdown when we cared for those with Covid (we are not health care workers I work in mh) it’s a slap in the face for them

@Belladonna12

You're right that study isn't comparing immunity in vaccinated and unvaccinated populations.

But it is cited in the Israeli study that I linked to above as part of a wider picture which is emerging suggesting that recovered persons have more durable immunity than vaccinated persons.

I already linked to it but you ma have missed it as this thread is very long. Here it is again.

www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2114583

Several studies on the durability of humoral response in persons who have recovered from SARS-CoV-2 infection showed that both IgG and neutralizing antibody levels decrease only modestly at 8 to 10 months after the infection.22,23 This striking difference in antibody kinetics between convalescent persons and vaccinated persons may be the reason for the substantially lower incidence of breakthrough infection among previously infected persons than among vaccinated persons.24,25 Overall, the accumulating evidence from our study and others22-25 shows that long-term humoral response and vaccine effectiveness in previously infected persons were superior to that in recipients of two doses of vaccine.

[quote Beachcomber]@Belladonna12

You're right that study isn't comparing immunity in vaccinated and unvaccinated populations.

But it is cited in the Israeli study that I linked to above as part of a wider picture which is emerging suggesting that recovered persons have more durable immunity than vaccinated persons.

I already linked to it but you ma have missed it as this thread is very long. Here it is again.

www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2114583

Several studies on the durability of humoral response in persons who have recovered from SARS-CoV-2 infection showed that both IgG and neutralizing antibody levels decrease only modestly at 8 to 10 months after the infection.22,23 This striking difference in antibody kinetics between convalescent persons and vaccinated persons may be the reason for the substantially lower incidence of breakthrough infection among previously infected persons than among vaccinated persons.24,25 Overall, the accumulating evidence from our study and others22-25 shows that long-term humoral response and vaccine effectiveness in previously infected persons were superior to that in recipients of two doses of vaccine.[/quote]
They are suggesting that immunity might be better following infection plus vaccination compared with two vaccine doses alone though which is very different to stating immunity from infection is better than vaccination.

Not exactly Belladonna12

As I said before, each study is part of a wider emerging picture.

The Israeli study that I linked to above only studied vaccinated people. It studied the waning of their immunity over time.

As is common in this sort of research they cite other studies which relate to their study.

They cite various studies including one which I linked to above which examined longevity of natural immunity. They also cite a study (which I have not linked to) on immunity in people who have had covid and been vaccinated.

They then draw a conclusion on how all those studies inform a wider picture. (Which is the part I quoted on this thread).

The emerging wider picture currently suggests the following:

• Natural immunity appears to last longer than was first thought.

• Vaccine induced immunity appears to last for less time than was initially predicted.

• People who are both vaccinated and have covid appear to have high levels of durable immunity.

• More research and data are required on all of the above.

@Beachcomber

Not exactly Belladonna12

As I said before, each study is part of a wider emerging picture.

The Israeli study that I linked to above only studied vaccinated people. It studied the waning of their immunity over time.

As is common in this sort of research they cite other studies which relate to their study.

They cite various studies including one which I linked to above which examined longevity of natural immunity. They also cite a study (which I have not linked to) on immunity in people who have had covid and been vaccinated.

They then draw a conclusion on how all those studies inform a wider picture. (Which is the part I quoted on this thread).

The emerging wider picture currently suggests the following:

• Natural immunity appears to last longer than was first thought.

• Vaccine induced immunity appears to last for less time than was initially predicted.

• People who are both vaccinated and have covid appear to have high levels of durable immunity.

• More research and data are required on all of the above.

A wider emerging picture does not mean that there is good evidence. It means that the evidence is weak and further data is required. Vaccine effectiveness evidence is much stronger as it has come from clinical trials. You can't expect policies on self isolation to be based on the weak evidence.

Here's a link to the study on the recovered plus vaccinated people if you are interested.

What they were looking at is whether it is necessary to give recovered persons 2 vaccines. Which is an interesting and important question as it could free up doses for more efficient use if the conclusion is that a 2nd dose is not necessary.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8346938/

It also ties in with current French policy which is to consider people who have had both covid and 1 vaccine to be fully vaccinated.