No 2 minutes silence at gym. AIBU

[Mushypeasandchipstogo]

I went to my gym today for a class in the swimming pool. I had totally expected the class to finish just before 11am so that those who wanted to could observe the two minutes silence. By 10.55am it was apparent that this was not going to happen so I just took myself out of the pool and sat in the changing room by myself.
So as to not drip feed, I am from a Forces Family and the wrong side of 50! I found this totally disrespectful of the instructor. He could have, at the very least, mentioned that he had intended to not stop before the class. AIBU to be upset by this?

Yes, that's exactly what's being argued.

I think it's indicative of the brainpower of those people who think patriotism is a fantastic thing, and that being called unpatriotic is a serious insult.

It's also indicative of the brainpower of those people who think patriotism has anything whatsoever to do with remembrance.

I remember those killed in the gulf wars, for example, but I utterly condemn the foreign policy that sent them there.

I get what you’re saying but I just find it one of many more things that is sad about the world. Nobody holds a minute of silence for us to remember the non-British non-soldiers who died in the war, and the neverending wars that seem to be still going on… Has there been a minute or two of silence for Palestine, Syria, Yemen, Lebanon… I could go on and on.

I’m glad you were able to at least have your 2 minutes alone in the changing room and I hope that offered you some peace. Unfortunately the world is getting on with things faster than ever and rarely do we stop to think about anyone else.

There was something similar on twitter a few days ago. Basically someone saying 'you have your Pride Celebrations, and Black Pride Month, and endless celebrations, concessions, and voices for minorities, so please PLEASE allow me just 2 minutes to be silent, and think about all the war dead who gave their lives so that me, AND you can have our freedom.'

@LittleDandelionClock, it's noticeable that you and @mustlovegin make this claim that people are trying to stop the 2 minute silence happening at all but can't point to anyone on this thread who is actually advocating that.

That is one of the problems with the mindset that revived the whole thing back in the late 90s - and indeed with many aspects of the right wing mindset: people seem to feel that disagreeing with them is an absolute offence to the extent that they are being persecuted, when nothing of the sort is happening. You have to be able to comprehend that the freedom of speech for which our ancestors were fighting involves people being entitled to have different opinions whilst not wanting those with differing opinions to be silenced. For some people it seems to be anathema that opinions other than theirs are permitted, which is particularly ironic in this context.

Just to be clear… no one on this thread is trying to prevent other people from having their 2 minutes silence. No one is trying to forbid it. They just want the freedom not to do it themselves.

I don't really understand how a two minutes silence would work in a swimming lesson anyway. Do people stand shivering at the side of the pool? Or do they clutch the hand rail silently, or tread water in the middle? Even if the class has finished early people will still be dripping and cold. And people who have paid for a full lesson and would rather show respect in other ways are entitled to feel short-changed.

@Platax

I don't really understand how a two minutes silence would work in a swimming lesson anyway. Do people stand shivering at the side of the pool? Or do they clutch the hand rail silently, or tread water in the middle? Even if the class has finished early people will still be dripping and cold. And people who have paid for a full lesson and would rather show respect in other ways are entitled to feel short-changed.

Also, do you remove your swimming cap and goggles? Traditionally one would doff one's cap in order to show respect. It's a total minefield.

In reality, I don't think anyone who genuinely wants to spend 11am on armistice day having a moment of quiet, meaningful contemplation books a swimming lesson for that time.

I don't really understand how a two minutes silence would work in a swimming lesson anyway. Do people stand shivering at the side of the pool? Or do they clutch the hand rail silently, or tread water in the middle? Even if the class has finished early people will still be dripping and cold. And people who have paid for a full lesson and would rather show respect in other ways are entitled to feel short-changed.

Yeah, the instructor probably did you a favour, OP. You were able to be silent all by yourself in the changing room. If he'd stopped the class early, you would have had all the other punters chattering all around you.

I'm just about the right side of 50 and have never observed the 2 minute silence on 11th. It's always been on the Sunday.

@Platax the irony of so much to do with the "our parents fought in the war and we ❤ Winston Churchill brigade so we'll force out immigrants and defend statues" crew is gigantic. It's the strangest thing. Chosen to latch on on to "defending our shores" and forget fighting the atrocities of the Nazi regime entirely. And Churchill was a hideous snob who wouldn't have spat on the masses if they were on fire.

I think of the dead and their families. Not the "patriotism" bit. And I do it on Sunday. And quite often when I walk past the cenotaph. Not when Esther Williams over there wants me to!!!

@mustlovegin

Animals are not territorial to an area the size of a nation though. So as the poster you quotes said, people are often loyal to small groups (family, friends, neighbours) as a natural instinct such as can be observed in animals

Animals are loyal to those in their social group, not a nation

So it's a matter of distance or size then? Rather simplistic if you ask me

I can consider someone living in Orkney as part of my social group, especially when I perceive them to reciprocate my feelings. You could feel a strong bond with a next door neighbour who refers to a place other than the UK when they say 'my country', like a poster upthread. Interesting.

LOL at some posters' nervousness at the suggestion that patriotism can be instinctive and hence real (as opposed to a mere construct that can be eroded if you try hard enough)

No that's it what I mean. Humans are complex and we develop social and political groups and loyalties for a vast array of reasons. My objection was to saying thay loyalty to the nation state is a natural instinct akin to teritorialism in the animal kingdom. My point in that post being that you can't even equate a relatively small animal territory to a nation.

A nation state is not a natural instinct, it is a complex socio-political-economic constructs (that often make use of constructed narratives around events such as wars to create unity and identity)

I do still thing most peoole would say that their strongest sense of loyalty is to a numerically small group of people. But, especially with global travel and internal communications, it doesn't have to be geographically small (or restricted to your country).

Its become so competitive..the poppy wearing ..how early can you start ... and the silences. Its all becoming a bit meaningless. Why not just focus on a thoughtful service on the Sunday and leave it at that. Also not everyone culturally observes it. And thats fine doesn't mean they don't value those lost.

The horror...

OK, OP, and others.

The vote is 80% YABU/20% YABU

Time to give it a rest?

It's rather more decisive that 52/48%; though stoking up the sort of emotions you deem compulsory went a good way towards that 52%, didn't it?

[quote LittleDandelionClock]@SnipSnipMrBurgess

It's a bit like when you are at the pub and having a good time, then someone starts singing, and everyone is hushed to be quiet and listen. Eh no, I didn't come here to listen to you, I came here to do my own thing thanks.

Well, maybe don't go to a pub where they are putting on a music/singing act then They always announce it beforehand, on a noticeboard or poster outside (and inside) the pub.[/quote]
They never said it was a musical act, just someone randomly singing.
Try reading before frothing.

@mustlovegin

I also have a feeling that some of the people observing the silence spend the entire 2 minutes judging others

What would you think of someone who visited a place like Auschwitz (mentioned by a PP) who behaved inappropriately? Would you not judge them?

That PP was me. Whilst I’m on - I think one of the most disrespectful things anyone can do is use Auschwitz as a pithy comparator. I actually struggle to comprehend how you thought this was an appropriate thing to say.

Agree with you @terrywynne @CSJobseeker and others.

Humans are tribal, for sure. But nationalism is just an attempt to harness that tribalism in the service of arbitrary borders. A country is a piece of the world that a ruler has said is theirs. It's an arbitrary and often problematic business. Right here in the UK we have an extremely problematic border. There are many others globally. How can a person have a natural affinity to a piece of land whose border is so difficult to define that people die trying to do so? I mean it's obviously not an eternal truth if there is such dispute that there are wars about its extent.

What would you think of someone who visited a place like Auschwitz (mentioned by a PP) who behaved inappropriately? Would you not judge them?
If somone choose to go to Auschwitz and act like a gobshite of course I would judge them.
If the OP went to an armistice day ceremony and there were people there being rude and disrespectful I would say they were out of line.
If somone went to a religious ceremony and acted the fool once again inappropriate.
However the OP went to a gym and was shocked that not everyone thought exactly as she did in that exact moment in time.
As others have mentioned up thread if she cared that much she shouldnt have booked a gym class at that time and next year she can find a service to attend to pay her respect.

@mustlovegin

Sombre reflection is possible at any time

Do you do this often? When?

I for one do it when I watch a certain episode from Dr Who "The Family of Blood". The ending always brings me tears into my eyes. I always watch it on or around 11/11. I also buy a couple of poppies every year - my grandfather was a pilot in WW2 and I always think of him and his mates, so many of them had never returned home

This year, on 11/11 at 11 o'clock I was working. I am an interpreter, I was interpreting on a police emergency call. Which started before 11 o'clock and took a while to finish. Neither the police officer, nor the distressed person who wanted to report an incident stopped for those 2 minutes, and I didn't stop either. Should we have stopped, really?

... I too come from a country who was occupied and fought against Germany during WW1, and after WW2 was practically given to USSR. We do have our traditions (not for this day though ) - and they are observed by those who choose to do so. Also, it is not an acceptable thing to shame the people who chose not to observe "in the official way" They might do it in their own ways; and in the past people had enough of "toeing the Party line" and being shamed and condemned in public when not doing so - honestly, I still remember those days and I do not want to ever get back to that, most people don't!

Was in TK Maxx last year at 11:11... They respectively announced over the Tanoy the two minute silence... Then forgot to turn off the in-store radio. 2 full minutes of Lizzo, Blaming it on her juice ;)

‘I buy a poppy but don’t actually take one. If someone judges me for not wearing one then that’s their problem. I don’t care.’

I do understand that thinking, but I think many people will see others wearing a poppy, and then that will remind them to get one themselves. If many people don't wear one, then many more will just forget.

All that said, I went the length of our High Street on Monday, and wasn't able to find a single poppy for sale anywhere
I understand there are not the (2nd world war) veterans that used to stand out in the streets collecting, but I am surprised the RBL haven't put out appeals for people to get the poppies out to banks and shops as used to happen.

I only noticed a couple of people wearing poppies this year. Seems to be less and less each year. And I'm one of them tbh, I haven't worn a poppy in years. Don't like the image which I feel it portrays now, which is support for the military.

@Hont1986

I only noticed a couple of people wearing poppies this year. Seems to be less and less each year. And I'm one of them tbh, I haven't worn a poppy in years. Don't like the image which I feel it portrays now, which is support for the military.

The last two years there definitely seem to be fewer. I wonder if it's pandemic related somehow

I agree about competitive poppy wearing. It's ridiculous that TV companies have become terrified to have anyone on their screens not wearing a poppy to the extent that they're fastened to skimpy costumes on Strictly. Surely the point is donating to the charity, not ostentatiously wearing a piece of coloured paper or a shiny badge.

@Mushypeasandchipstogo All PP's posts must've shown you why instructors/gyms wouldn't tend to do this if they aren't fairly sure that most of their clients would be on board with it.

Like, maybe if I was teaching a class at the Legion to regulars of there.

But in a gym or in most places an instructor will be leading a class for people with a wide range of views. They will also have people from different cultural backgrounds who mightn't even know what was going on or it wouldn't have much relevance to them.

Or people might just want the class they're paying for.

You can bet that if an instructor did do two minutes silence, in a lot of places there would be someone who would complain to the gym about it.