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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Red v white poppies

364 replies

Malhao · 11/11/2021 00:33

AIBU to be unimpressed that the staff at school are trying to sell my kids red poppies without explaining the symbolism behind them?

I don't agree with the concept of war and am contemplating sending them in wearing white poppies (I've explained the difference to them and they both agree with the principles behind the white poppies) but wonder if they'll get picked on for standing out?

OP posts:
MumW · 11/11/2021 09:41

For all those not happy propping up the military machine, I wonder what they think would happen if we disbanded it. You've only got to look at Russia/Crimea to see that not all countries are prepared to respect current international boundaries so no forces at all would leave us very vunerable.

supremelybaffled · 11/11/2021 09:42

I'm wearing a purple poppy today, and have done for several years now.

dreamingbohemian · 11/11/2021 09:43

@mustlovegin

The UK is not going to be attacked by another state as long as it has nuclear weapons, the Second World War will not be repeated

So you can 100% guarantee this, wow.

Your username dreamingbohemian is very adequate.

There are no 100% guarantees but it's hard to imagine a scenario where another state attacks the UK homeland in a serious way, knowing that there would be not only a significant conventional response, hopefully a much bigger NATO response, and the possibility of escalation to nuclear war.

Can you tell me one? A realistic scenario? Who is attacking the UK, and why?

Do you really think the UK would go through another Blitz situation when it has nuclear weapons, all sorts of conventional weapons, not to mention offensive cyber weapons?

The UK will certainly fight more wars but they will not look like the world wars.

MindyStClaire · 11/11/2021 09:43

That would suggest we were living in the kind of democratic, tolerant, free country that people died to protect!

And so if you want to honour that, getting worked up about people wearing a white poppy seems to miss the point!

I'd happily wear a poppy if it was just about the utter waste of WW1 or the sacrifice of WW2. But I will never wear one that is in tribute to the actions of the British army in NI, Afghanistan or Iraq (and doubtless plenty of other places too). Those people signed up voluntarily (although I acknowledge the tragedy of economic conscription).

Schools should be sensitive to the diverse backgrounds of their students. It would be incredibly insensitive to suggest that a Catholic child with family in Derry buy a poppy, for example.

ginghamstarfish · 11/11/2021 09:43

What a daft thing to say. Most people wear a red poppy in remembrance of those who went to war and died for their country, not because they are in favour of war. Children should surely be taught this too.

Merryhobnobs · 11/11/2021 09:44

I don't agree with violence or wars or really having armed forces. However I remember the stories my grandparents told. Of the Great great uncle who lost both his sons within the space of a week, of the family member who was a POW, of the rationing and hardship, the stories my sister in law has told of the things she has seen (she is serving in the army just now) and the little support some of her colleagues have had. I don't agree with it but I do agree that the poppy is a visual reminder to remember and why we shouldn't ever go back down that path. Alas that is in the hands of the politicians. But a poppy is not pro war, it literally is to remind us of the lives lost.

MRex · 11/11/2021 09:44

[quote supermoonrising]@MRex
It is a career, but one in which they frequently place their own lives at risk by agreeing to go wherever the ruling government sends them to serve this country.

That's a poor excuse for fighting an immoral war which sees 10,000s of civilian deaths (Afghanistan) or 100,000s (Iraq).

If you don't think a particular war is appropriate then lobby your MP
Trouble is we're not talking about a once in a century exception, post WW2 we're talking about the norm.

As you yourself recognise, (and is stated on the British Legion website), the poppy is a sign of support for the British armed forces/armed forces community. Full stop.
So no, I don't support the armed forces due to their actions in Afghanistan, Iraq, Ireland etc.
If it was kept to remembering the tragic bloodbath of WW2 and the huge sacrifice of life in WW2 I would support that, but clearly it isn't. Let's not pretend otherwise, as even the British Legion website states as such.[/quote]
Tony Blair agreed to enter those wars, though Bush would have gone in anyway. It is not and can never be appropriate for individual members of the military to pick and choose what they will do, that's the entire point of being "in service". I did not agree with the invasion personally, there were 1m people on that March, but it was a decision made by the government of the day. Once they have gone, of course the returning veterans deserve support. They came back with missing limbs and PTSD, for a war they didn't start. You are picking an argument against soldiers for decisions made by government under Tony Blair, as though they had the choice, yet you don't even name the man entirely accountable, blame him!

While you are picking what you think is important, you name one set of wars and ignore everything else. British military have died and been injured in protective roles in Balkans and Congo, as well as protecting British territory in the Falklands. You are also ignoring the protective importance to other countries of exercises supporting the Baltics and Taiwan now. Go and ask a Lithuanian what would happen without that, or have a little look at events in eastern Ukraine. If you learn a little more about what the military do, then you might understand better why they deserve a nod of thanks just one day a year.

prh47bridge · 11/11/2021 09:45

@Prattypitel

No other country in the world is doing this poppy thing.However,Britain is a country that is quite ready to involve itself in a war.I find the whole thing totally baffling.And why do we have a populist government now,when we are proud to have fought off a populist leader in the 2,world war???
This is simply wrong. Some Commonwealth countries also use poppies - Canada, Australia and New Zealand, for example. Some other European countries such as Poland and Belgium associate the poppy with remembrance, although wearing a poppy on Remembrance Day is less common than in the UK. France has the blue cornflower which, like the poppy in the UK, raises money for veterans and their families as well as serving as a symbol of remembrance.

I get that you don't like the current government but comparing them to the Nazis? Really?

JumperandJacket · 11/11/2021 09:47

OP, you've misunderstood what a red poppy symbolises.

I personally dislike the white poppy. The red poppy for remembrance was intended to be apolitical- it is simply a symbol to help us remember those who have died and as such is completely appropriate for everyone to wear, from a field marshal to a committed pacifist. Introducing a competing symbol- the white poppy- leads to the sort of mistake the OP has made in assuming that the red poppy means one supports war.

I also suspect that white poppy wearers haven't really thought through what they actually think about pacifism. To be a true pacifist and believe that there are no circumstances which justify military action is not a simple or fluffy position at all. Wandering about with a white poppy on because you don't like war just marks you out as an idiot, I fear.

Everanewbie · 11/11/2021 09:48

This topic always leads me to question whether I am turning a bit gammon-ish, and I hate it when obvious racist xenophobic groups hijack the poppy.

But. I hope I can take a reasonable and balanced position here.

The poppy symbolism originates from a poem describing Flanders Fields in the aftermath of war. It is sold to remember those that gave their lives, and raise money for those that remain and affected by war. It is not a sign of support for the British army, but the men (and women) as individuals and the death and suffering.

You can of course choose not to wear one or support this charity. However wearing a white, purple or rainbow poppy at this time of year is at best akin to turning up to a testicular cancer fundraiser to promote breast cancer awareness. Your cause is noble, but expressing it at this time, in this context is inappropriate and disrespectful.

Personally I have sympathy for pacifism but find it childlike in its naivety. WWI with hindsight feels pointless, but honestly, Germans invading Europe, Africa, Asia, Fascism, the holocaust, what were we supposed to do?

I feel that the poppy expresses remembrance and a solemn reminder of the cost of war so that we only ever enter conflict if it is entirely necessary and doing nothing would be unquestionably worse.

whatswithtodaytoday · 11/11/2021 09:50

I feel the red poppy has been hijacked to become a pro-military symbol. In some ways that is pro-war - they're glorifying the war dead. 'Never again'. Ha! The government should support veterans, they sent them to war and they have a duty to care for them and their families when they are killed and injured.

I do not give money to military organisations (except in taxes, which I can't help), and so I don't buy or wear poppies. I'll explain this to my child when he's old enough to understand, but in the meantime - because it's an abstract concept and I doubt it will really make sense until he's about 10, when I started to get it too - I'll be ok with him earing a poppy to fit in with everyone else.

I much prefer the idea of a white poppy but can't be arsed with the potential for pro-military abuse I'd get for wearing one.

dreamingbohemian · 11/11/2021 09:52

@MumW

For all those not happy propping up the military machine, I wonder what they think would happen if we disbanded it. You've only got to look at Russia/Crimea to see that not all countries are prepared to respect current international boundaries so no forces at all would leave us very vunerable.
Ukraine doesn't have nuclear weapons, or NATO membership, and that's before you even get to the favourable geography allowing Russian intervention

Or rather, Ukraine did have nuclear weapons when the Soviet Union collapsed, but it returned them to Russia in exchange for promises to respect its territorial integrity (something they deeply regret now)

Yes Britain needs its armed forces but the threat of invasion and interstate war is extremely low.

TalkSomeSense20 · 11/11/2021 09:53

@Prattypitel

No other country in the world is doing this poppy thing.However,Britain is a country that is quite ready to involve itself in a war.I find the whole thing totally baffling.And why do we have a populist government now,when we are proud to have fought off a populist leader in the 2,world war???
Oh stop it!!! You find the whole thing totally baffling?? Then perhaps I might suggest you watch the excellent final few minutes of the BBC series The Last Tommies. The poppy is there to symbolise loss and remembrance across all wars and you are doing a huge disservice to those who have lost or been lost by finding it 'baffling'. I personally coudn't give a toss if Britain is the only country who choose to use the poppy. We are the only country who serve Yorkshire Puddings with roast beef too.........
PurpleParrotfish · 11/11/2021 09:53

@KurtWilde

Some people are saying that the white poppy is disrespectful to the fallen. I don’t agree, I think that it may imply that the decision to send them to war in the first place may not have been a good one

So our country should've just accepted the advances of Hitler then rather than defend itself??

‘May’ not have been a good decision. The red poppy is not just about the fallen of the Second World War who died fighting Nazis, but originated from the bloodbath of the First World War, and also covers Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Implying these shouldn’t be questioned kind of proves my point.
LightTripper · 11/11/2021 09:53

That Michael Morpurgo quote is fantastic @ComtesseDeSpair, sums it up perfectly for me.

Why not suggest they go in with one of each OP? A red poppy doesn't glorify war - I wear one every year and for me it's a simple act of remembrance (my great uncle was killed in WW1, my Grandpa was really affected by that and by his own experiences in the merchant navy, and my mum and uncle and grandparents were prisoners of war in WWII so I am hardly going to glorify it). But a white poppy is also an important symbol of peace and will prompt some interesting conversations if they choose to wear it.

Prattypitel · 11/11/2021 09:56

@TalkSomeSense20.Nationalism is for people who dont dare to independantly think and just blabb after a leader.No thank you.

Mischance · 11/11/2021 09:56

I do not wear a poppy at all. My father served in the 2nd WW and was in Singapore. I do not know what happened to him there; he refused to talk about it. He objected strongly to the whole concept of remembrance - he thought that we should put it behind us. I do not necessarily completely agree with that. But he would never wear a poppy or watch remembrance ceremonies; so neither do I - it is my small mark of respect for him and what he went through.

TalkSomeSense20 · 11/11/2021 10:02

@MindyStClaire

That would suggest we were living in the kind of democratic, tolerant, free country that people died to protect!

And so if you want to honour that, getting worked up about people wearing a white poppy seems to miss the point!

I'd happily wear a poppy if it was just about the utter waste of WW1 or the sacrifice of WW2. But I will never wear one that is in tribute to the actions of the British army in NI, Afghanistan or Iraq (and doubtless plenty of other places too). Those people signed up voluntarily (although I acknowledge the tragedy of economic conscription).

Schools should be sensitive to the diverse backgrounds of their students. It would be incredibly insensitive to suggest that a Catholic child with family in Derry buy a poppy, for example.

Why though...... surely its a good opportunity to use the poppy as a symbol to make EVERYONE stop and think for a few minutes every year about war and how it impacts on everyone involved?? It's not a political symbol. It's not something that is pro British. Or pro Catholic. Or pro war. Or anything you might want to bring in to politicise what its meant for the last 100 years.
Prattypitel · 11/11/2021 10:02

@3scape

My town is weirdly (to the point of inappropriate costs in a financially tough climate) obsessed with remembrance day. I've lost the poppy i bought. I'm honestly avoiding going out today because I WILL be abused in the street for not wearing one. It's insane
Indeed,it is insane.the poppy fascism is alive every year.
LindaEllen · 11/11/2021 10:05

You should be happy that you have the freedom to not agree with the concept of war. We are a free country thanks to the men, women, children and animals that lost their lives in the wars.

What would have happened to people who 'didn't agree with the concept of war' and refused to fight in the 1900s? They'd have got shot, that's what.

lottiegarbanzo · 11/11/2021 10:05

You don't say how old your DC are OP. I think that's key to whether this is really their decision, or yours.

Most likely, you have offered information selectively, leading them to a pre-approved conclusion, which they may not be old enough, or accomplished enough at independent thinking and research, to challenge effectively. Isn't that what most of us do with our DC, about most things, most of the time? Feed them our own views, sometimes caveated around with a summary and dismissal of other options?

My question would be why it is important to you that they display your choice at school and attempt to deal with the complexity of the issue and reconcile the difference between your view and the school's approach there, in public, rather than doing that at home? Some DC relish debate, investigation, or just being different or contrary, others feel very awkward about being singled out and different. So I think the most important question here concerns the personalities of your children.

Poppy symbolism is complicated. It is not simple. It is contested. It is often politically loaded and frequently appropriated.

People who judge or lambast anyone for making the free choice not to wear a red poppy, or to adopt the white poppy instead, are acting against the tenets of the 'freedom' they claim the remembered soldiers died for.

There is a lot to discover, a lot to digest and many reasons why people, including former soldiers, choose not to wear red poppies. A quick read of the wikipedia page on Remembrance poppies gives a superficial sense of this. Further reading offers deeper understanding. e.g. The late Robert Fisk's columns in the Independent, about why his WWI veteran father abandoned the poppy and he followed through respect, were interesting (to start with, if increasingly polemical and overwrought as time went on). They offer a glimpse of one reason, anyway.

TalkSomeSense20 · 11/11/2021 10:06

[quote Prattypitel]@TalkSomeSense20.Nationalism is for people who dont dare to independantly think and just blabb after a leader.No thank you.[/quote]
But why is it a symbol of nationalism to wear a poppy??? I have one on today and wear it with thoughtfulness and remembrance in mind. To insult my intelligence by suggesting i wear one because I'm unable to independently think about whether to wear one or not says more about your mindset than mine. And short, derogatory, unsubstantiated comments like yours do make me shake my head in despair.

MindyStClaire · 11/11/2021 10:07

Why though...... surely its a good opportunity to use the poppy as a symbol to make EVERYONE stop and think for a few minutes every year about war and how it impacts on everyone involved?? It's not a political symbol. It's not something that is pro British. Or pro Catholic. Or pro war. Or anything you might want to bring in to politicise what its meant for the last 100 years.

The funds from the sales of poppies directly fund veterans of the UK's armed forces, including the parachute regiment. Surely you don't need it spelled out to you why someone from a Derry, Catholic background would abhor that? (And that's not my personal background, just for the record.)

Runningupthecurtains · 11/11/2021 10:08

DH is serving military personnel (not a soldier, he's in a different branch of the forces.) I'm wearing a red poppy today as I have been all week. I will take a moment of silent reflection at 11am today. On Sunday I will attend the local memorial service and once the official bit is over I will lay a token of rememberance in memory of DHs colleagues and my family members lost in WWI and WWII. I will also remember the mother's, wives, sweethearts and children who lived with the consequences of those deaths.
I wear the poppy because I choose to. I dislike the attitude that people who choose not to are wrong. Their choice is as valid as mine. I don't make any kind of judgement of people who are not wearing a poppy - just like I don't judge anyone not wearing a pink ribbon for breast cancer or a red nose on Comic relief day. I actually admire the footballers who refuse to have a poppy on their shirt - if it is not a choice to wear it it has no value at all. Wear a red poppy, a purple one, a white one, all three or none at all but please don't think everyone who wears a red poppy thinks war is marvellous.

Viviennemary · 11/11/2021 10:10

I totally disagree with white poppies. It is an insult to all people who have died fighting for freedom.