Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Red v white poppies

364 replies

Malhao · 11/11/2021 00:33

AIBU to be unimpressed that the staff at school are trying to sell my kids red poppies without explaining the symbolism behind them?

I don't agree with the concept of war and am contemplating sending them in wearing white poppies (I've explained the difference to them and they both agree with the principles behind the white poppies) but wonder if they'll get picked on for standing out?

OP posts:
Prattypitel · 11/11/2021 17:27

@Washingtonirving79

Christ. I dread hearing the lame-arse excuse of 'people who died for our freedom'. The poppy refers to the fields of Flanders (WWI); an Imperial spat between royal cousins. Nothing to do with freedom whatsoever.

More recently, it's been hijacked by pro-war, jingoistic loons. Grim, faux patriotism.

👍
Prattypitel · 11/11/2021 17:28

@SnackSizeRaisin

Red poppies are to symbolise those who died to allow us to have thoughts like yours. If they hadn’t sacrificed their lives where would we be now?

Unfortunately their deaths were largely pointless and unnecessary. World war 1 was about nothing. World war 2 was avoidable. None of the wars since have been about anything that would have affected us directly. Poppy day enables justification of pointless warfare which is why I disagree with it.

👍
bg21 · 11/11/2021 17:37

educate yourself a little more

Cryalot2 · 11/11/2021 17:44

Red poppies have a heritage and wearing one remembers all those who have lost lives to conflict. The rbl supports both living victims and famlies of those who lost loved ones.

It has been symbolic since 1921 if I am right and has worked. Why try and change it.

No one likes wars, but sadly they do happen, so why try to change something that is part of our heritage.

I would personally feel I was not honouring those who we remember if I wore a poppy by a different coulour. The red shows respect.

Maybe there should be a peace day to lay white flowers.

beigebrownblue · 11/11/2021 17:54

@mustlovegin

So would someone explain exactly what it is the 'freedom' that the soldiers went to war for?

If you didn't have this freedom you would realise what it means pretty soon, I can assure you.

The fact that you even need to ask this question speaks volumes

Excuse me. I have a knowledge of history. And I do know what I am talking about.
beigebrownblue · 11/11/2021 17:55

Rhetorical question I asked.
I'm aware of the historical background of all this. Thanks.

beigebrownblue · 11/11/2021 18:01

[quote SlamLikeAGuitar]@beigebrownblue you do know that majority during WWI and WWII weren’t conscripts right? They weren’t there by choice Hmm
And as for modern wars: I made the choice to join the army at 16. I grew up on the breadline, with a poor education and even poorer employment prospects. The army offered me qualifications I otherwise wouldn’t have gained, it offered me job security - a pay check at the end of every single month with no questions asked, it offered me a roof over my head, 3 square meals a day. So yes, I chose it. But no one actively chooses to go to war, watch their friends die, get seriously injured. I didn’t go out on patrol one day, watch some kids playing football in a field and think “I’m going to be picking shrapnel out of that 3 year old’s back in a few hours - sounds like a fun day out!” Hmm
Speaking from experience, and the general consensus among my ex-colleagues, the “bigger picture” generally doesn’t enter our headspace when it comes to the crux of it. We go where we are told to go, Do what we are told to do and just try to make it back with ourselves and our mates all in one piece.
It’s only really in recent months with the news coming out of Afghanistan, and another 9 years of growing up behind me that I’ve asked myself the questions “What was it for?” and “What was the point?”.[/quote]
Thank you. I'm not stupid.

My own father described the forces as 'the poor man's university'. he joined.

but that doesn't mean he would not have appreciated having a choice.
In an area of multiple economic deprivation where he grew up.

Some people would use the term 'canon fodder'.
And I wouldn't stop short of that.

Don't be patronising.

Eleganz · 11/11/2021 18:20

@SnackSizeRaisin

Red poppies are to symbolise those who died to allow us to have thoughts like yours. If they hadn’t sacrificed their lives where would we be now?

Unfortunately their deaths were largely pointless and unnecessary. World war 1 was about nothing. World war 2 was avoidable. None of the wars since have been about anything that would have affected us directly. Poppy day enables justification of pointless warfare which is why I disagree with it.

What would the world look like now if we had avoided WWII? We did try, appeasement failed. Six million Jews died at the hands of the Nazis, I wonder how many more it would have been if appeasement had succeeded?

Wear whatever colour poppy you like, but I think it is best to leave off the idea that all alternative histories where wars were not fought would necessarily have been better.

beigebrownblue · 11/11/2021 18:25

I know that Snacksizeraisin makes a good point.

Action wasn't taken when it should have been . World War two case in point.

No, I don't believe 'we' tried hard enough when it mattered.

Helicopterlife · 11/11/2021 18:49

@MilduraS

The poppy isn't just about remembering ww1 and ww2 veterans. If it was, I wouldn't feel so conflicted about wearing one. It's supports every British soldier who has been involved in a conflict since the world wars. That includes the soldiers who were involved in the troubles in Ireland.
That’s disgraceful if so!
Dilbertian · 11/11/2021 19:25

@SnackSizeRaisin

Red poppies are to symbolise those who died to allow us to have thoughts like yours. If they hadn’t sacrificed their lives where would we be now?

Unfortunately their deaths were largely pointless and unnecessary. World war 1 was about nothing. World war 2 was avoidable. None of the wars since have been about anything that would have affected us directly. Poppy day enables justification of pointless warfare which is why I disagree with it.

As a Jew I'm quite glad that Britain did not avoid war by grovelling to Hitler.
Prattypitel · 11/11/2021 19:28

@beigebrownblue.I completely agree with you.

Flossy05 · 12/11/2021 07:36

@Cam77 I wasn’t talking about the aims of the RL, I was talking about the SYMBOLISM of the red poppy which IS remembrance and hope for future peace. The RL website says so “ Our red poppy is a symbol of both Remembrance and hope for a peaceful future.”

I have no idea what your DM rant is referring to because I don’t read that garbage.

BiBabbles · 12/11/2021 09:32

Red poppies have a heritage and wearing one remembers all those who have lost lives to conflict.

And white poppies have British heritage too - they've been around since 1933. The whole 'are red poppies being co-opted/losing their meaning/too militaristic/too British focused' and 'are white poppies insulting/ignorant/smug/worth firing someone over' and making complaints about the issues with the organizations involved have been around decades - that could be said to be part of heritage too.

This year just added the whole 'Pull the Pin' rum incident to the discussion.

MrsSkylerWhite · 12/11/2021 09:36

SexyNeckbeard

Prattypitel
No other country in the world is doing this poppy thing.However,Britain is a country that is quite ready to involve itself in a war.I find the whole thing totally baffling.And why do we have a populist government now,when we are proud to have fought off a populist leader in the 2,world war???

“This has to be one of the most stupid comments I've ever seen on MN and I've been around here a long time”

Yep.

turnaroundtime · 12/11/2021 16:57

@Malhao

AIBU to be unimpressed that the staff at school are trying to sell my kids red poppies without explaining the symbolism behind them?

I don't agree with the concept of war and am contemplating sending them in wearing white poppies (I've explained the difference to them and they both agree with the principles behind the white poppies) but wonder if they'll get picked on for standing out?

Oh bless. You don't agree with the concept of war. How adorable that your privileged little life has allowed you to think that war is a concept one can choose to agree or disagree with. You are so unbelievably ignorant that it's offensive
BessieFinknottle · 12/11/2021 18:20

A bit harsh turnaroundtime. Though of course it's a privilege to live in peace, you don't have to be very privileged or spoilt to think that war is nearly always a bad idea.

The red poppy just means remembrance for some, a way of honouring the dead and their sacrifice.
But others, while supporting the remembrance aspect of the poppy, believe wearing it means showing your support for the British military. (The Royal British Legion who sell the poppies are a charity that support military personnel, both active and veterans.) This is a step too far for some, for a variety of reasons.

Another concerning issue is that wearing the red poppy has, in certain circles at least, become an obligation and no longer a choice.

toconclude · 12/11/2021 18:55

@Mybalconyiscracking

Oh dear God, learn some history will you?
This. Applies to so many situations and opinions I find. ..
Ricetwisty · 12/11/2021 19:04

@beigebrownblue

So. The reasons why people are losing their lives nowadays include the following:
  1. One in 5 kids are in poverty and their parents make choices about whether to eat or not.
  2. The NHS is in crisis - staff are burned out. They shouldn't be asked to work fifty sixty hours a week.
  3. There is a shortage of carers for older people and younger people.
  4. There aren't even enough ambulances to go round. Front page news. and if it weren't front page news most people where I live know that you could die waiting for an ambulance if you got ill as there is a two hour wait.

So. Yes, I'm sorry these people lost their lives, but not, not, not so that 'we' could 'live'.

Something not right there.
NHS was founded for a reason.
My own mother was in the first NHS TB ward. Ever.
That was a pandemic.

And she lived through the wars.
But she never had to live though home schooling. No funds for even a dentist appointment.

So would someone explain exactly what it is the 'freedom' that the soldiers went to war for?

No offence to their memory at all, but perhaps we should recall what it is that they considered they were fighting for in the first place?

If not a health system to help those in need?
Or schools that run properly?

Do you think they were fighting to protect the NHS?
BessieFinknottle · 12/11/2021 19:29

Care to elaborate @toconclude?

HappyDays40 · 12/11/2021 19:30

I wear a poppy to commemorate the memory of beautiful man I ever had the privilege to know. My grandfather who was a gunner in Montgomery's 8th army in Egypt and Palestine. He hated the army but went and survived due to conjunctivitis, his brother who loved the army stayed to look after him as his sight was at risk. His regiment got wiped out crossing on a boat. Conjunctivitis meant that my grandmother got both her sons home safely. He had four children and I am thankful for every day that this kind beautiful soul graced my life. It is for him I wear it and still cry at his memory.

beigebrownblue · 12/11/2021 20:22

Ricetwisty

In response to your comment

did I think they were 'fighting to protect the NHS'.

My response

They were fighting to maintain a civilised society, where the sick and needy weren't exploited and were cared for.

So YES. I believe they were.

As I may have said my mum was in the first TB NHS ward. She had lived through the war, was married to a service man and their values were those of the NHS originally created.

Free at the point of need.

So yes, I do.

They were fighting for the values of the NHS as it was originally created.

Who did you fight for?

beigebrownblue · 12/11/2021 20:39

And as I've already said, my grandad died in the trenches.
So I know.

MrsSkylerWhite · 12/11/2021 21:17

BessieFinknottle

People here are mistaken if they think wearing red poppies aren't a political and divisive symbol. I know it's natural for British people to want to support their army, but there are many people living in the UK from places where British soldiers were the invaders, a colonial power, and a destructive force. They have absolutely no wish to support the British army.“

We buy our poppies in remembrance of my grandfather, Edward, who served in the First World War, joined up at 16, gassed at the Battle of the Somme at 17, then served as a Fire Warden during the London Blitz during World War Two.

We also wear them in remembrance of my husband’s German grandfather, Paul, who fought and died in World War Two.

I’m 58 and can still remember Edward. He was a lovely grandad, a gentle soul, who grew the most spectacular dahlias in his south London garden. My mum, born in October, 1939, told me that he screamed at night for as long as she could remember. That was just her dad, who was the most beautiful soul she ever knew.

Mr husband, obviously doesn’t remember his grandad, he died before he was born. His mother does, though. He grew the family’s vegetables in their garden in Heilbronn and played the accordion. He taught my husband’s mother, too as a very little girl.

These gentle men, who I know would have been friends in better times, were not imperialists or war-mongers. They did what they were convinced by “their betters” that fthey had to do, for their families first and foremost.

World War One was a f**king disgrace, we can all agree on that - now. Edward didn’t know that, though. He did what, as a simple, working man (child, by today’s standards) his “superiors” told him he must do and for that he lost his life and my MIL her father.
Edward did what any man would do and was completely justified. World War Two was, I think anyway, one of the few justifiable wars in human history. People were fighting for hearth and home (a lot more besides but that would need the whole of Mumsnet) and I for one are still incredibly proud of them and what they did for the generations who came after them.

I don’t know from your post if you are a British born person, live overseas or are a naturalised British citizen.

I suppose that doesn’t really matter actually.

If you live here and benefit from our freedoms and democracy (yes, it’s imperfect but we have a semblance of it, at least) then you owe an enormous debt to those faceless young men who died in their millions to give you what you have now.

We wear our red poppies with love and pride and will do so until we die.

MrsSkylerWhite · 12/11/2021 21:23

Incredibly embarrassed now. Edward did not lose his life in World War Two, Paul did. Forgive me got cross/sad/angry and messed their names up.

They were both loved young men though, despite my gin-inspired rant, and we will remember them forever.

Swipe left for the next trending thread