Red v white poppies

[Malhao]

AIBU to be unimpressed that the staff at school are trying to sell my kids red poppies without explaining the symbolism behind them?

I don't agree with the concept of war and am contemplating sending them in wearing white poppies (I've explained the difference to them and they both agree with the principles behind the white poppies) but wonder if they'll get picked on for standing out?

I’m finding this thread on Rememberance Day wholly inappropriate.

We are remembering those who lost their lives or livelihoods who fought with fear and courage.

A number of these comments are inappropriate.

It is not about the politics of war but the individuals on both sides involved.

@Balonziaga
I will wear my red poppy but think the white poppy is completely un-necessary. it's like wearing a symbol that declares that you are 'anti stabbing penguins' - of course you are. Any decent person would be

The modern US is one of the most pro-war societies in the history of the world. The statistics are clear as day.

Remembrance Day is on Sunday. Today is Armistice Day.

The necessity or otherwise of WWI is and was deeply contested, including by many who fought in it, some of whom went on to refuse to wear poppies. I find this discussion today, perfectly appropriate.

That most things are not all good or all bad

Sure, Chairman Mao was a poppet really. The life expectancy of all the millions of people he murdered wasn’t great.
Blimey, imagine saying ‘well fascism had its good as well as bad points’

@ProudMaiasaura

The red poppy is a symbol of respect and gratitude. It is not a pro-war symbol and to claim such a thing is crass and distasteful.

The origins of the red poppy were to provide much needed money to veterans and families of veterans who desperately needed help after a war none of them asked for, but many paid a bitter price.

It's evolved somewhat but the RBL and the Earl Haig still support veterans and their family's.

YABVU and rather insulting.

The red poppy is a symbol of respect and gratitude. It is not a pro-war symbol and to claim such a thing is crass and distasteful.

...and ignorant!

What I really don't get is how the anniversary of the Armistice, i.e. a day to celebrate a hard-won peace, enjoyed by people all over the world, has somehow been high-jacked to become all about the British Armed Forces.

World Wars were total wars. No-one was truly a civilian anymore, whether they wanted it or not. And this was particularly true closer to the front-lines. If anything, the UK was a lot less affected than many other European countries.
But achieving peace, and maintaining it, takes more effort than war. That's the real lesson here (otherwise there wouldn't have been two world wars). And the peace effort involves everyone. Nothing against armed forces (veterans do deserve support), but focusing on them exclusively is really a bit of a distraction.

@Lifeisaminestrone
It is not about ....
The meanings of symbols can change over time. They can also be vague. (are we remembering the dead or supporting the troops? Britain can’t make up its mind).
To one person a symbol may be holy. To another deeply offensive.
This isn’t complex stuff.

@SinoohXaenaHide

I don't buy the poppies from the Roysl British Legion because as a charity they do sponsorship deals with weapons manufacturers which sell weapons to oppressive regimes that use those weapons against civilians. They are happy to keep the machines of war going and ensuring there will be an ongoing supply of war wounded and bereaved. It's hypocritical to do lip service to mourning the dead of past wars whilst actively promoting ways to ensure that there will be more in future.

The white poppies are produced by the Peace Pledge Union, an educational charity that works towards building a future where power and control isn't decided on the basus of who can deal out death most effectively.

Learn something new every day.

I choose not to wear a Poppy at all. I do still have a few minutes silence and think about the sacrifices that were made for me to live the life I do and the cost that had to so many.

I don't think poppies are necessary to do that, but I think if the school aren't making children pay into a cause that they may or not want to pay into, then wearing a Poppy, to children, is only symbolising that respect. The burden of funding a charity with questionable morals doesn't fall onto the children.

It's called Remembrance Day... where we remember those that lost their lives protecting us. would you have liked Hitler to have won the war?!

It's not called "Woo-Hoo Let's Start another War Because We Love Blood, Gore and Death".

I am so bored of this woke attitude for everything. Where people don't really understand but think it sounds good.

@PinkPlantCase today’s armed forces keep you safe every single day from threats that you have absolutely no awareness of.

Wearing a poppy isn’t just remembering the sacrifice of people that died 100 years ago, it’s about remembering people like Guardsman Matthew Talbot who died in Malawi whilst protecting elephants from poachers. It’s remembering Pte Watson-Pickering who died on Salisbury Plain just a few weeks ago. It’s acknowledging the sacrifices of soldiers currently serving in Estonia on a peacekeeping mission to stop Russia annexing Estonia. It’s acknowledging the sacrifices of the soldiers that left their families for months on end during the pandemic to serve this country in a time of need.

The white poppy belittles their sacrifices, on their website it says the white poppy is to ‘…challenge attempts to glamorise or celebrate war.’ Remembering and acknowledging people’s sacrifices isn’t celebrating war.

@Mantlemoose

The red poppy represents remembrance of the British Armed Forces in all wars.. The white poppy represents ALL victims, military and civilians and aims to stop the exclusion of non armed forces from Remembrance events. Why would you not want to honour everyone who died for their country just because they weren't in the forces? The white poppy includes people like the volunteer aircraft watchers, the woman who worked in the factories making equipment to fight with which ultimately caused the death of many of those making them? The people on the street who does helping others? Inconceivable to me only the armed forces deserve remembering.

My mum's aunt worked in a munitions factory and lost her unborn baby because of the work she was expected to do there, whilst heavily pregnant. My grandad was in the home guard. My mum lost an uncle in WWI. As a family we wear a red poppy to remember everyone who was lost, not just the armed forces. I'm sure many people do the same.

@Andante57
You’re conflating separate events. Of course Mao made huge mistakes which were responsible for worsening the famine. (however, please note that historically, up to and including Mao, awful famines in China have been tragically frequent events). However the fact that he was a very poor leader during those years was totally separate to the huge improvements in women’s rights, life expectancy, and literacy which also came about due to communist party policies in China in the 60s and 70s and beyond. More than a billion Chinese in China can see there was a good side of Mao and also a bad side. Just like there was a good side of the Iraq war (Sadam removed) and a bad side (100,000s of civilian deaths). I trust their understanding of it more than some random Westerner who has probably never stepped foot in the country.

I don't wear a poppy at all these days. It's both become a ridiculous corporatised mess (see twitter.com/giantpoppywatch for some of the most bizarre examples) and a symbol clung onto by those who disguise racism behind nationalism and miss the point of e.g. WW2 altogether.

Is it really that controversial to want to celebrate peace on the anniversary of the Armistice? If there isn't room both for celebration and remembrance, then we have learned nothing.

Peace is about balancing conflicting opinions and interests.
Red poppy + white poppy makes lots of sense.
Red poppy VS white poppy just means repeating the same mistakes.

it's hard to imagine a scenario where another state attacks the UK homeland in a serious way, knowing that there would be not only a significant conventional response, hopefully a much bigger NATO response, and the possibility of escalation to nuclear war.

@dreamingbohemian. Actually the U.K. is concerned about Putin and Russia. That’s why Johnson has increased your nuclear stockpile from 120 war heads to 260. Mostly submarine, not ICBMs. Russia has been “testing” the U.K. of late. Russian war ships have deviated from channel shipping lands and cruising into U.K. waters forcing U.K. to scramble military ships to “escort” them. Russian fighter jets have similarly cheekily flown into U.K. airspace and again UK has scrambled jets to escort them away. Russia controls the natural gas supply necessary to heat UK homes...which is a critical infrastructure weakness.

If it came to it and Russia attacked the U.K., you would be overwhelmed quite quickly. Their navy far outnumbers yours as does their army and air forces. The nuclear deterrent isn’t much of one as Russia could easily kill everyone in the British isles in less than an hour with their nuclear weapons. So U.K. is not going to launch anything nuclear at Russia as they’ve made it clear to do so would result in the “assured total destruction” of the U.K.

The only thing holding them off is probably the US being a close ally who has shown they will defend the U.K. if needs must. Which is why Russia has been interfering in US and U.K. elections with an end goal of disrupting that relationship, along with their other geopolitical goals.

So why do you need a white poppy if you feel that a proper one expresses your feelings? Is it to deliberately cut out the charitable donation to the RBL, or to appear different?

A white poppy is not not 'proper'.

There is judgement of people who don't wear a red one, which I object to and which is the reason I would not wear one.

@PlanDeRaccordement

it's hard to imagine a scenario where another state attacks the UK homeland in a serious way, knowing that there would be not only a significant conventional response, hopefully a much bigger NATO response, and the possibility of escalation to nuclear war.

@dreamingbohemian. Actually the U.K. is concerned about Putin and Russia. That’s why Johnson has increased your nuclear stockpile from 120 war heads to 260. Mostly submarine, not ICBMs. Russia has been “testing” the U.K. of late. Russian war ships have deviated from channel shipping lands and cruising into U.K. waters forcing U.K. to scramble military ships to “escort” them. Russian fighter jets have similarly cheekily flown into U.K. airspace and again UK has scrambled jets to escort them away. Russia controls the natural gas supply necessary to heat UK homes...which is a critical infrastructure weakness.

If it came to it and Russia attacked the U.K., you would be overwhelmed quite quickly. Their navy far outnumbers yours as does their army and air forces. The nuclear deterrent isn’t much of one as Russia could easily kill everyone in the British isles in less than an hour with their nuclear weapons. So U.K. is not going to launch anything nuclear at Russia as they’ve made it clear to do so would result in the “assured total destruction” of the U.K.

The only thing holding them off is probably the US being a close ally who has shown they will defend the U.K. if needs must. Which is why Russia has been interfering in US and U.K. elections with an end goal of disrupting that relationship, along with their other geopolitical goals.

Haha do you actually believe the crap you spout? Surely not!

The white poppy belittles their sacrifices, on their website it says the white poppy is to ‘…challenge attempts to glamorise or celebrate war.'

Utterly fed up of the 'let's challenge everything' mob

@Lifeisaminestrone

I’m finding this thread on Rememberance Day wholly inappropriate.

We are remembering those who lost their lives or livelihoods who fought with fear and courage.

A number of these comments are inappropriate.

It is not about the politics of war but the individuals on both sides involved.

So are we not permitted to think about all those who didn’t feel courage? Seriously, there is nothing courageous about sending young people to be killed, maimed, or mentally scarred. Bleeding out on the bare ground crying out for their mother in some pointless ill-conceived conflict. My great uncle died in WW1 at the age of 21, his body never traced, yes I remember him, and the waste of his life. My grandfather never recovered mentally from his experiences in WW1 and eventually committed suicide which emotionally scarred my mother. Death in war is nothing to do with courage. I find your comments offensive actually.

[quote elbea]@PinkPlantCase today’s armed forces keep you safe every single day from threats that you have absolutely no awareness of.

Wearing a poppy isn’t just remembering the sacrifice of people that died 100 years ago, it’s about remembering people like Guardsman Matthew Talbot who died in Malawi whilst protecting elephants from poachers. It’s remembering Pte Watson-Pickering who died on Salisbury Plain just a few weeks ago. It’s acknowledging the sacrifices of soldiers currently serving in Estonia on a peacekeeping mission to stop Russia annexing Estonia. It’s acknowledging the sacrifices of the soldiers that left their families for months on end during the pandemic to serve this country in a time of need.

The white poppy belittles their sacrifices, on their website it says the white poppy is to ‘…challenge attempts to glamorise or celebrate war.’ Remembering and acknowledging people’s sacrifices isn’t celebrating war.[/quote]
Absolutely this.

I bet these people ‘against war’ were the same people who were angry when the forces left Afghanistan last month, and wanted them to stay and evacuate more people.

@SilverBirchWithout how do you think both world wars would have ended if no one was sent to fight? Do you think no one would have been maimed or injured?

@BessieFinknottle

People here are mistaken if they think wearing red poppies aren't a political and divisive symbol. I know it's natural for British people to want to support their army, but there are many people living in the UK from places where British soldiers were the invaders, a colonial power, and a destructive force. They have absolutely no wish to support the British army.

@BessieFinknottle

Tosh. Wearing a red poppy is not making a political statement, nor is it divisive. Millions wear the poppy, attend parades etc to remember those who sacrificed their lives and those millions include people from the very many different nationalities who live in this country, including those were the British were ‘ invaders, a colonial power and a destructive force’

Time has moved on, I suggest you do

Northen Ireland is part of the UK, @Chloemol.
I can assure you that wearing a red poppy is divisive there.

Why do you think the footballer James McClean gets in trouble every year for this?

The poppy represents support of the British army as well as being a memorial of the dead of the world wars. That's the problem, it means more than one thing.

I've no issue with people wearing a poppy if they choose btw, but dislike the obligation and expectation that you must.

@BessieFinknottle

There is no expectation or obligation to wear a red poppy, that’s freedom of choice for you, something those who died in The world wars sacrificed themselves for.

Bet you anything though that if push came to shove and god forbid there is another war and we are invaded NI, and any other areas concerned, would be more than happy to have the support of the British Army to get rid of the invaders

[quote elbea]@PinkPlantCase today’s armed forces keep you safe every single day from threats that you have absolutely no awareness of.

Wearing a poppy isn’t just remembering the sacrifice of people that died 100 years ago, it’s about remembering people like Guardsman Matthew Talbot who died in Malawi whilst protecting elephants from poachers. It’s remembering Pte Watson-Pickering who died on Salisbury Plain just a few weeks ago. It’s acknowledging the sacrifices of soldiers currently serving in Estonia on a peacekeeping mission to stop Russia annexing Estonia. It’s acknowledging the sacrifices of the soldiers that left their families for months on end during the pandemic to serve this country in a time of need.

The white poppy belittles their sacrifices, on their website it says the white poppy is to ‘…challenge attempts to glamorise or celebrate war.’ Remembering and acknowledging people’s sacrifices isn’t celebrating war.[/quote]
@BessieFinknottle

This with spades on

For the most part the red poppy is no longer just a symbol of remembrance for the fallen, it has instead been coopted by the far right. In the week running up to remembrance it may be used by those genuinely wanting to remember the dead soldiers and their sacrifice but in the other 51 weeks of the year it is displayed by those very comfortable in expressing their pro establishment, pro military, pro Brexit, anti immigration, racist and misogynistic views.

Believe me, nobody who has served recently would say that the death of young men (and women btw) is glorious, but there is certainly honour in their actions, as long as you separate the politics of the conflict (which is a political decision) from the actions of those who volunteer to serve (and have no say in whether that is UK flood defences, covid ambulances, supply chain Lorry driving, or deployments overseas).

The armed forces are essentially a massive insurance policy. You hope to god you don’t need them, but in time of crisis, no matter what that crisis is, they are there to help, regardless of their own individual political persuasion. Like another poster rightly said, saying ‘gentle hands’ (which essentially equates to diplomacy) sometimes doesn’t work, and where would we be without an armed forces then.