Singapore not giving free treatment to anti-vaxxers

[Whose]

stops paying for Covid treatment for people who are unvaccinated by choice | The Independent" www.independent.co.uk/asia/southeast-asia/singapore-free-covid-treatment-unvaccinated-b1954077.html?amp

AIBU to think this fair enough?

Currently, unvaccinated persons make up a sizeable majority of those who require intensive inpatient care, and disproportionately contribute to the strain on our healthcare resources,

(Those who haven't had the vaccine because they medically can't are excluded from this)

@Wannakisstheteacher

In fact maybe we could make a little camp for those with HIV and hepatitis etc just to make absolutely sure there is no way they can infect the rest of us. I’m sure there is a nice island somewhere we can dump them.

If your "we" means you live in Singapore, you know they already have to pay for healthcare typically.

If you're not in Singapore, at least educate yourself into how their system works. Maybe read the thread.

And it still continues... headdesk

Isn't it illuminating that those who have actually either read the thread, or bothered to look into the Singaporean healthcare system typically understand and agree with this change in policy?

@SickAndTiredAgain It probably wouldn't be indefinite. But most of the vaccinated don't end up in ICU so its not too expensive, i think.

The Singapore government often does one-off funding in this way. There is a Pioneer Generation and Merdeka Generation package which subsidises medical care (along with other perks) for people born before 1949 and in the 1950s respectively but not anyone else. Granted those people born in the time period are the most likely to require expensive medical care but still. It was framed as a thank you gift to that generation which helped build Singapore.

@SickAndTiredAgain and those packages are on top of the usual subsidies that apply to all singaporeans. My dad claims that it was this package that meant that my grandma voted for the ruling party for the first time in years! :)

Does this include their migrant workers ?

A system that relies on personal responsibility for your healthcare (even if it’s great care) doesn’t often support those with mh issues as many struggle to manage personal responsibility

Singapore’s treatment of their migrant workers (which is shockingly poor for such a wealthy country) has been highly publicised during the pandemic

The response was in general many would like to see such systems and no doubt they shall be put in place in some countries

[quote onlychildhamster]@SickAndTiredAgain and those packages are on top of the usual subsidies that apply to all singaporeans. My dad claims that it was this package that meant that my grandma voted for the ruling party for the first time in years! :)[/quote]
Only have people accepted ok it in Singapore?

Also how does insurance work do people need to update cover to include covid (and can insurance deal with numbers), or is it from savings part

@Sparklfairy Health insurance is compulsory for all Singaporeans and Permanent Residents. Singapore citizens also have to save into a compulsory health savings account, it is auto deducted from pay check. There are subsidies and this applies to non vaccinated people.

Also how does insurance work do people need to update cover to include covid (and can insurance deal with numbers), or is it from savings part?

That's the heart of this thread isn't it?

Some, like @MarshaBradyo, me, others, know very little of how it works. But we can ask, listen and find out what people affected by it think.

Others want that other system to be something it isn't, including all inclusive and perfect (What does it do for immigrant workers, etc?)

Some know, are part of that system. And are doing their damndest to eplxain it. For which I thank you. Every day being a school day and all that

@MarshaBradyo There is a basic insurance scheme called Medishield life which everyone has (including low income, the government pays the premiums). This will only cover part of the healthcare bill and the rest have to come from Medisave (compulsory healthcare savings)/out of pocket. There are different caps for different treatments. The government has stated that unvaccinated can continue to rely on medishield life and subsidies. Realistically most Singaporeans have some sort of supplemental health insurance on top of this that covers more things if they are middle income and above and tax rates are a lot lower in Singapore than in UK i.e. top tax rate is only 22% and most singaporeans pay much less (I was drilled from a young age that buying additional medical insurance was an absolute must and the singapore medical system is part of the syllabus in school). And if they are poor, they would be eligible for more subsidies anyway.

@OhWhyNot not sure about the construction workers but my dad was responsible for all healthcare costs for my grandma's domestic helper from the Philippines (my grandma is bed bound after a stroke; she is in a home now to get more specialized care but she used to have a full time helper who would feed her, bathe her and look after her; we didn't allow her to do anything but look after my grandmother). She got dengue fever and landed up in hospital, my dad paid all medical expenses for her at foreigner rates. My dad said it was not too expensive.

@OhWhyNot from what I can see, there seems to be gaps in the system which is why the singapore government is setting up 6 healthcare centres to provide primary care for the construction workers. like the domestic helpers, the employers are responsible for all their foreign worker employee's medical care but i can imagine that corporations would be far less scared of breaking the law than individual families.

I do think that Singapore has a long way to go with regard to migrant worker rights

[quote Porcupineintherough]@KylieKoKo when was the last time the health service ground to a halt, and ICU was overflowing because people were falling out of trees?[/quote]
It happens almost every winter because of flu.

That hasn't led to being threatened to withhold treatment if the patient hasn't had their flu vaccine.

@tigger1001 they are not denying treatment, they are just asking people to pay for it out of their health insurance and health savings (both mandatory). if you are singaporean, you learn from a young age that you need to pay medical bills. I was 14 when I was writing essays in exam about the Singapore health system. They even had abbreviations to help people remember the three components of Singapore healthcare- Medisave, Medishield and Medifund.

Conversely I had a hard time trying to explain to my parents that medical care is free in the UK. They were worrying whether I had adequate insurance as a foreigner in another country and whether my employer provided health insurance was good enough. My dad's view was employer insurance was never good enough, it should be separate from your employment(thats just his view though, am sure not all singaporeans will agree). I had to repeat over and over again- NHS treatment is Free. It is all free. They even give you free bandages. So Singaporeans aren't just aware that they have to pay for medical treatment, they find it hard to understand the concept of free healthcare

@onlychildhamster - I get that.

I was responding to a poster who was being flippant about when do you see icu overrun because of falling out a tree etc. quite a few posters have also said they would like it see it introduced here.

There are so many comments saying "what about people who drink, do sports, drive, eat unhealthy etc."

They just do not compare.

Putting yourself at some level of risk is something that is required in life. Needing to drive to get places, having to walk alone at night as that's the only route from A to B. Any accident someone is involved in you could hypothetically say 'were you not responsible for putting yourself in that situation?'. Should you not have inspected then floor for trip hazards before walking? Should you have not eaten slower to avoid choking on that food?

Issues around obesity, smoking, alcohol, drugs etc are the same. The issues around these are deeply complex and are related to education, mental health, socio economics. There are many variables involved that are not simple to tackle with no straightforward solution. I'm sure if there was a vaccine to tackle emotional binge eating or alcohol dependency people would take it.

And what would be an acceptable level of personal risk, is being a little bit overweight ok? What if you used to do drugs but are clean now? ...finding a criteria would be impossible.

In all those scenarios there are so many variables and complex issues surrounding it and impossibilities to draw a line about what is an acceptable level of personal risk and what isnt.

Where as having a vaccine is simply a choice to have it or to not have it.

FYI I dont agree the UK should deny non vaccinated free treatment as it goes against the principles of the NHS, but for Singapore's model it makes complete sense.

@Mreggsworth Singapore has the most expensive beer in Asia. It has extremely high alcohol taxes. For social and/or environmental reasons, Singapore levies high excise taxes on beer, wine and liquor, tobacco products, motor vehicles (only 1 in 4 singapore families have a car as you need to bid for a license to own a car, thankfully public transport is very cheap and good- less than a quid in many cases, taxis are plentiful. The Certificate to own a car is the equivalent of £35k in addition to car taxes and import taxes and road taxes and congestion taxes etc etc) and petroleum products. One of my DH's favorite things to do in Singapore is to go to the alcohol section in the supermarket and exclaim over the prices (he is a drinker, I have never been). Whether it is cultural or a result of the taxes, most singaporeans are not heavy drinkers, they tend to have a glass of wine at a wedding or the office party or a social occasion, I hardly know anyone back in Singapore who binge drinks. Even though I am in the UK where alcohol is a lot cheaper, I never drink except the odd glass at the annual christmas party or other social occasions. I have never smoked in my life. Smoking is very difficult in Singapore, there are the taxes and also you are not allowed to smoke in most places and there was a 'smoke free' neighbourhood a few years back.

Conservative american commentators have been interested in the Singapore system as I guess they only focus on the market orientated aspects of it i.e. health savings account while ignoring the other aspects that make it a success- subsidies, mandatory health insurance, punitive sin taxes (that infringe on the american ideal of individual freedom). I once read an article that said' if americans drove less, drank less and smoked less, we would be in overall better health!'

[quote SickAndTiredAgain]@onlychildhamster How long do you think the funding of covid treatment for the vaccinated will last? I assume it won’t carry on indefinitely, it wouldn’t be logical to keep funding it in 5 years time, while not funding anything else.[/quote]
Why? Other vaccinations are free

@Nanny0gg I was referring to Singapore, which doesn’t have free healthcare but the government is currently funding covid treatment. I was asking if there was any speculation on how long that might last.

Are healthcare systems like in Singapore more 'efficient' and less wasteful than the NHS?

For example the money that goes to layers of management or the wasteful IT systems?

@KylieKoKo

Do you think it's fair to not give free treatment to other people who have taken risks? Perhaps those who chose to play a dangerous sport? Or a child who chooses to climb a high tree? What about someone who steps out into the road with our looking? Or perhaps someone who doesn't eat fruit and vegetables?

All these things are choices that carry a risk. Why is not having a vaccination different?

Because you aren’t usually putting others at risk in these scenarios.

No it's not fair enough. I've had my vaccinations but if we were to do this then we also should start making other people who make unhealthy choices pay for their healthcare too like smokers or obese people. I'm sure a lot of people have opinions on that and rightly so.

Medical care isn't selective and shouldn't be.

@Nanny0gg has that changed then? I remember paying for flu vaccine in Singapore in 2012 and 2013. It was 30 SGD or something like that. Also paid for top up MMR cos I needed that for my UK visa. the kid vaccines are free i think.

Sorry. Wrong end of the stick on my part

Because you aren’t usually putting others at risk in these scenarios

@soyouthought every penny spent patching people up after accidents or dealing with the consequences of poor choices could have been spent on other diseases. All these things cause harm to others.

I'm glad I live somewhere where healthcare is right rather than a privilege for those who make the "right" choices.