Singapore not giving free treatment to anti-vaxxers

[Whose]

stops paying for Covid treatment for people who are unvaccinated by choice | The Independent" www.independent.co.uk/asia/southeast-asia/singapore-free-covid-treatment-unvaccinated-b1954077.html?amp

AIBU to think this fair enough?

Currently, unvaccinated persons make up a sizeable majority of those who require intensive inpatient care, and disproportionately contribute to the strain on our healthcare resources,

(Those who haven't had the vaccine because they medically can't are excluded from this)

@MarshaBradyo all Singapore citizens have a healthcare savings account (approximately 8.5-10% of income), they all have health insurance. Subsidies ranging from 50-80% depending on the class of ward, their income level and their property value.

All this would apply even if the treatment is not free. If they can't pay even after all that, there is medifund which is a government endowment fund for lower income people who can't pay medical bills. That is granted at the discretion of the hospital.

Basically the same situation as if you got a stroke, a heart attack, fell down a tree etc

No I don’t agree with this at all
It’s a slippery slope
Vaccinated people can spread this
Obesity drains huge resources so I think we should not treat fat people, oh nor drinkers, or smokers or people with flu who did not have the jab
Terrible idea and it Shames me that we are going this way !

@millymolls

No I don’t agree with this at all It’s a slippery slope Vaccinated people can spread this Obesity drains huge resources so I think we should not treat fat people, oh nor drinkers, or smokers or people with flu who did not have the jab Terrible idea and it Shames me that we are going this way !

We aren't going this way, did you read the thread?

@MajorCarolDanvers

I'm not sure that people should be denied medical treatment because they are stupid but I do have a lot of sympathy for this decision.

Interesting thanks for into

@MajorCarolDanvers no one is denied medical treatment, they are just presented with a bill afterwards. Usually in Singapore, the bill will show all the relevant deductions from your health savings account (medisave) and you would also get a subsidy on top of that unless you opted for private healthcare. Insurance should also cover at least part of it. However as most Singaporeans would know, one should always be prepared to pay some out of pocket expenses if the government is not covering everything. So the government is saying- your wallet is going to hurt if you are unvaccinated and get covid and end up in hospital. And if you are vaccinated and end up in hospital, you don't need to worry

Whoops not sure how I quoted wrong person, I meant to quote Onlychildhamster

@ColinTheKoala

No I don't think it's fair enough unless you extend it to obese people, those who abuse alcohol and drugs, those who drive recklessly and endanger their own and other peoples' lives - ultimately you could even extend it to those who break their legs ski-ing or twist an ankle running.

Where does it end? I can see the logic, but it's a very dangerous slippery slope. Either you provide care or you don't.

^This

Ah, then we must not offer gastric band to people who choose to be fat and we must not treat lung cancer on those who choose to smoke. Must be a nice view up there on your high horse

You and I trust the "scientists" and "government" every day; why is the COVID vaccine such a special case?

Because it's a new vaccine? Perhaps because any criticism/questioning is immediately shut down and ridiculed? For BAME communities perhaps a lot of mistrust comes from being deliberately misled and subjected to medical experiments in the past?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vaccinations-osama-bin-ladens-dna

Perhaps even because they have been caught out manipulating data to justify restrictions. First Whitty, then just this week Amanda Pritchard the head of the NHS used incorrect data to claim that the NHS has 14 times as many covid admissions than last year - the chief executive, deliberately misleading the public

And finally, can we please stop with this "Oh but you can still get infected when you've had the vaccine" shite. We know you can but the point is that the vaccine does significantly reduce the risk of both illness and transmission, and that is absolutely fucking vital.

For 12 weeks it reduces transmission, then it wanes - yet we aren't having boosters every 12 weeks so how can you justify forcing people to comply with such dystopian measures?

Yes this is Singapore, not the UK, however on the vaccine mandate thread many people bleated on 'it's already happening in other countries - why the fuss here?!' How long before the same is said about restricting healthcare here?!

The factor which puts you most at risk of being hospitalised with covid (not linked to age which can't be helped) is weight. Shall we deny obese people medical help as well! Obese people also have poor immunity so are much more likely to catch it and pass it on - let's just kill all the fat people!

Btw - I think in U.K. there are rules about compulsory isolation/treatment for active TB.

And I think people who travelled from places with outbreaks of Ebola had to follow certain isolation rules.

Yes there is bodily autonomy and freedom, but there is also public protection. Most people acknowledge that the boundary lies in the middle somewhere - but exactly where is a question for debate and compromise. If fewer people are vaccinated, then it’s likely that unless more restrictions are brought in, the ambulance queues and hospital waiting lists will worsen. I guess like everything - different people prefer different trade offs.

Isn't this essentially a consequence of insurance based healthcare similar to how you aren't covered if you have a preexisting condition?

Insurers don't want to take on patients who cost them too much thus they make excuses for non coverage.

If you are on holiday your insurance coverage won't include injuries incurred whilt drunk etc.

I don't like it, but given this is a system which doesn't have universal free health care and is non democratic, I can't say its a surprise.

There is already a two tier system between citizens and non citizens. The state has no problem in treating different groups of humans as having lesser rights.

@KylieKoKo

Do you think it's fair to not give free treatment to other people who have taken risks? Perhaps those who chose to play a dangerous sport? Or a child who chooses to climb a high tree? What about someone who steps out into the road with our looking? Or perhaps someone who doesn't eat fruit and vegetables?

All these things are choices that carry a risk. Why is not having a vaccination different?

Because I can't catch a broken leg from someone! Nor is my cholesterol affected by what you eat.

I wonder, when the polio/diphtheria/TB/whooping cough vaccines were brought in (I remember the illnesses) did people dither and think that they didn't want 'chemicals' injected or did they just thank their lucky stars that they and their children were no longer likely to die of hideous illnesses?
People have short memories

@KylieKoKo

Do you think it's fair to not give free treatment to other people who have taken risks? Perhaps those who chose to play a dangerous sport? Or a child who chooses to climb a high tree? What about someone who steps out into the road with our looking? Or perhaps someone who doesn't eat fruit and vegetables?

All these things are choices that carry a risk. Why is not having a vaccination different?

Playing sports carries an inherent risk, similar to the inherent risk of catching covid in everyday life or getting ill despite being vaccinated.

Refusing the vaccine is like playing the sport recklessly - not wearing your crash helmet or protective gear.

Because I can't catch a broken leg from someone!

Nor is my cholesterol affected by what you eat.

To be fair, though, their vaccinatuon status doesn't really affect you. It's more about protecting them and doesn't stop them spreading it even if vaccinated.

Given that covid can be asymptomatic, I would think that the fact that vaccinated people are less likely to catch covid in the first place would reduce their likelihood of passing it on to other people - you would be v unlikely to transmit covid unless you yourself are infected. In addition, I believe that those who are vaccinated have a shorter duration of infection, which probably means they are less likely to transmit over the course of the illness.

The magnitude of the difference in transmission between unvaccinated and vaccinated is probably up for debate though. Whether it makes enough difference for differentiated policies etc.

@KrispyKremeDream

Because I can't catch a broken leg from someone!

Nor is my cholesterol affected by what you eat.

To be fair, though, their vaccinatuon status doesn't really affect you. It's more about protecting them and doesn't stop them spreading it even if vaccinated.

Yes.

It.

Does.

FFS.

Not having the covid jab does not make someone an anti-vaxxer. I know many people who have all their vaccinations apart from covid. They aren't stupid, nor are they anti-vaxxers, and I don't think healthcare should be denied for that reason.

@RedToothBrush citizens in Singapore have more obligations. If you are a man, you have to serve 2 years in the army, generally in the military doing field combat. You have to do reservist training every year until you are 40, ,50 if you are an officer. This could interfere with your work but the state expects you to be there at camp, they will pay your salary so you should be there.If there is a warz you will fight (and most likely die). You also can't take on any other citizenships. Hence no surprise Singaporeans expect better treatment as civilians compared to foreigners given they were working for below minimum wage for 2 of the best years of their life.

@RedToothBrush also it is compulsory for Singaporeans to have health insurance and 8-10.5% of their income is deducted for future healthcare spending. There are also subsidies.

No Singaporean I know aspires to have free healthcare. The NHS is not viewed positively in Singapore. They admire German healthcare which has much higher premiums and much higher taxes but much better coverage. Of course they also want to pay the same level of low taxes (highest tax rate 22%) and get the same level of coverage!

@KrispyKremeDream

Because I can't catch a broken leg from someone!

Nor is my cholesterol affected by what you eat.

To be fair, though, their vaccinatuon status doesn't really affect you. It's more about protecting them and doesn't stop them spreading it even if vaccinated.

I am no scientist (you can tell) but surely the more people vaccinated, the weaker the virus becomes?

@5keletor

Not having the covid jab does not make someone an anti-vaxxer. I know many people who have all their vaccinations apart from covid. They aren't stupid, nor are they anti-vaxxers, and I don't think healthcare should be denied for that reason.

So what are they then?

What are their reasons?

And please don't say 'it's not a vaccine' or 'it's too new' or 'it's not been sufficiently trialled'

I don't agree with this at all.

The unvaccinated are generally worried about the effects of the jab. That doesn't make them undeserving of treatment.

Would people not be treated for other avoidable stuff?

eg
Broke leg skiing - shouldn't have gone skiing, it's dangerous.
Car accident - shouldn't have driven, should have taken bus.
Contact sports injury - shouldn't have done that, should have done a safer sport
Trampolining injury - see above for skiing.
Medical care for pregnancy - well that was your choice so you can pay.

I mean where does it end?!

Although I think everyone should get vaccinated, I don't agree with this at all. Our NHS provided free healthcare to people who choose to smoke, take drugs or drink alcohol. These choices cost the country billions of pounds every year, yet we still treat people when they need it, which is the right thing to do IMO. We really don't want to start going down the route of judging who is 'worthy' of receiving healthcare.