Singapore not giving free treatment to anti-vaxxers

[Whose]

stops paying for Covid treatment for people who are unvaccinated by choice | The Independent" www.independent.co.uk/asia/southeast-asia/singapore-free-covid-treatment-unvaccinated-b1954077.html?amp

AIBU to think this fair enough?

Currently, unvaccinated persons make up a sizeable majority of those who require intensive inpatient care, and disproportionately contribute to the strain on our healthcare resources,

(Those who haven't had the vaccine because they medically can't are excluded from this)

@SockFluffInTheBath

I think people need to know that there is no NHS in Singapore and free Covid treatment was brought in as a stand-alone. That being the case I think it’s fair.

This.

It can't be compared to a NHS system. It is normal to pay for medical treatment in Singapore. Covid was an exemption.

It now will only be an exemption for fully vaccinated patients.

People can still get normal medical treatment in their normal system. They just can't access it via the exemption.

I don't think anti-vaxxers should be denied treatment as such, but they certainly shouldn't be prioritised. I.e. if there's an anti-vax covid patient and a heart attack victim both waiting for an ICU bed, then I think the heart attack victim should get the bed. Likewise for waiting for an ambulance, etc.

It is a bit desingenuous of people to be dismissing everyone's concerns about this proposal by saying that the Singapore system is different, when it is obvious that the people supporting the idea would like to see it implemented in the UK.

The strength of hatred and fear the British have for people who do not want be vaccinated is frankly terrifying as is the speed with which they want to introduce measures that could/would result in their death.

@KylieKoKo

Do you think it's fair to not give free treatment to other people who have taken risks? Perhaps those who chose to play a dangerous sport? Or a child who chooses to climb a high tree? What about someone who steps out into the road with our looking? Or perhaps someone who doesn't eat fruit and vegetables?

All these things are choices that carry a risk. Why is not having a vaccination different?

Well I think people who do some dangerous activities should take out insurance for it. Basically if someone else is going to have to risk their own life to save you, like mountain rescue or the coastguard.

So medics being exposed to an infectious disease wouldn’t be a million miles from that.

@HermioneWeasley

If I recall, Singapore have an interesting healthcare model. Each person gets a number of points allocated each year and each GP visit etc costs a certain number of points. When you’ve used them up you have to pay. I think family members can transfer points to each other. I have no idea how it works for disability or cancer treatment, but I think the principle is sound - would help the huge number of wasted appointments etc. Want to do rock climbing as a hobby - no problem, but if you’re a heavy strain in the health service as a result of injuries then you’ll be paying for it

I like the personal responsibility it encourages

That seems like an extremely unfair system. Most people who need a lot of appointments or treatments need them through no fault of their own.

Coyoacan when it is obvious that SOME OF the people supporting the idea would like to see it implemented in the UK.

There, fixed that for you. You may wish to work on your reading comprehension, my post is literally just above yours saying the exact opposite of what you're claiming.

@Coyoacan

I don't think anti-vaxxers should be denied treatment as such, but they certainly shouldn't be prioritised. I.e. if there's an anti-vax covid patient and a heart attack victim both waiting for an ICU bed, then I think the heart attack victim should get the bed. Likewise for waiting for an ambulance, etc.

It is a bit desingenuous of people to be dismissing everyone's concerns about this proposal by saying that the Singapore system is different, when it is obvious that the people supporting the idea would like to see it implemented in the UK.

The strength of hatred and fear the British have for people who do not want be vaccinated is frankly terrifying as is the speed with which they want to introduce measures that could/would result in their death.

No, what IS terrifying is a pandemic running through the country killing people, ruining livelihoods, etc., and yet some people still can't be arsed to protect themselves and others.

That seems like an extremely unfair system. Most people who need a lot of appointments or treatments need them through no fault of their own.

Agreed, I don't know the ins and outs but I would hope there are exemptions for chronic and incurable conditions.

@MissTrip82

I’m an ICU dr.

I find this disgusting. Entirely unethical.

If we don’t offer free treatment to everyone who’s contributed to their own illness….we’d treat hardly anyone for free.

There is also, IME, a very strong correlation indeed between poor levels of education and anti-vaxx views. I’m not interested in punishing people because they have had significantly less education that I’ve had.

The day I start judging patients like this is the day I leave medicine. I’ll know I’ve become a deformed soul.

The day I start judging patients like this is the day I leave medicine.

You just did!
In the same post you just called anti-vaxers poorly educated.

That's a judgement. You are judging them.

(One I agree with BTW, but it is still a judgement and not a fact)

Wow. Uncomfortable with this. What about smokers and people who drink alcohol, or who significantly overeat? Those groups are by far the biggest spend for the NHS. So Singapore won’t pay to treat an adult who needs intensive care because they were scared of the vaccine, but they will treat a vaccinated adult who needs intensive care because they choose to smoke? Hmmm.

Slippery slope, and how does it work in practice? Dr withholds treatment unless someone can afford to pay? What if they can afford a bit of extra oxygen but not a ventilator? Ugh.

I think you need to take it in context of the system in Singapore.

So I believe citizens get some subsidized healthcare and can co-pay depending on what style of ward etc they pick.

Regarding all other diseases/accidents, it would then be true that ‘only the rich can afford to have’ heart, lung, bowel, immune conditions, accidents (though subsidized care can mitigate some of that). You can argue that this can be true for U.K. too - in that waiting lists have got long, so the rich can afford private to speed up treatment.

So covid was an exception. One of the reasons it could have been an exception was that covid hit very quickly and early on they would have wanted to encourage people to come forward, be treated and isolate. Now they have switched strategies to living with covid and accepting cases (having set up track and trace, testing, vaccines), I can see why the public health need for free covid-specific care is reduced. So I guess it might be in line with someone not getting a hep b or measles jab and then catching those conditions (ie - they can access subsidized care as for other conditions, but not free covid specific care). What is still an anomaly is that they continue to give free treatment for covid in double vax people. You can argue that this both encourages people to get the vaccine and encourages anxious people to attend work/use facilities and stimulate the economy.

As long as people who can't have the vaccine are not penalized, I see no problem with this. Unvaccinated people can still get treatment.

@KylieKoKo

Do you think it's fair to not give free treatment to other people who have taken risks? Perhaps those who chose to play a dangerous sport? Or a child who chooses to climb a high tree? What about someone who steps out into the road with our looking? Or perhaps someone who doesn't eat fruit and vegetables?

All these things are choices that carry a risk. Why is not having a vaccination different?

When you have a healthcare system that requires patients to pay for some or all of their treatment then it is up to the government, those who run the system to decide.

@Namenic outlines it pretty neatly.

@Skysblue they dont treat conditions caused by smoking or alcohol abuse for free in Singapore either. Mostly health care is not free there.

@OnlyFoolsnMothers

SO BASICALLY ITS OK TO BE AN ANTIVAXER AS LONG AS YOU AREN'T POOR!!! Well this is a terrifying slope the world is going down, bullying the poor, moral judgements on who gets to work and who gets medical treatment. Everyone who supports this should be ashamed - and yes Im vaccinated and happy to be!

Oh goodness. Well over 90% of people in Singapore are fully vaccinated and another 2% partially vaccinated. There are exemptions in place for those who cannot be vaccinated. As stated, Singapore has different provision to this country. Shouting about it doesn't give you some kind of right to influence how other countries manage their health provision.

Maybe because if you fall from a tree and hurt yourself you are only putting yourself at risk? You can't spread a broken leg.
🤣🤣🤣
what about the person that you fall on!

I think it's fair enough to let antivaxxers not have free treatment if they get covid. Just tell them they aren't ill, it's all a conspiracy and they're imagining it.

I'm vaccinated but I feel like screaming this on these threads- even if you are vaccinated you can still transmit the virus. So by having the virus you are only protecting yourself.

Shouting about it doesn't give you some kind of right to influence how other countries manage their health provision then we may as well shut down a thread about any other country that ones the OP resides in- it's called an opinion, a debate- other countries arent off limits to being scrutinised.

It's actually very frightening to see how society is becoming further divided and the hate that is being directed to those that do not conform.

I think it's fair enough to let antivaxxers not have free treatment if they get covid. Just tell them they aren't ill, it's all a conspiracy and they're imagining it not everyone who hasnt had the vaccine is a conspiracist, some are just scared and generally low risk anyway. The sheer ignorance and dismissive nature of people who don't think like you do is abhorrent in the UK- its like Brexit on steroids.

I posted this on another thread but will repost here:

I am from Singapore (live in London now) and healthcare is not free for the general population. It is a complex system funded by a mandatory savings scheme (20% of income by individual, 17% of income by employer) which can be used for healthcare (in addition to pension/property), mandatory health insurance and government subsidies (means tested and level of subsidy depending on what class of ward you choose + your income/property value). My grandma was in hospital for a month due to stroke and my dad had to pay out £5k for her out of pocket (she didn't qualify for much subsidy as she lived with my parents in private housing and she did not have much money in her health savings account as she only worked during the 1960s and 1970s when Singapore was quite poor).

Covid 19 treatment in Singapore was an exception to the rule, it was free for all citizens and permanent residents regardless of your situation. Now they have removed that blanket rule for the non vaxers, it does not mean that all the non vaxers are now going to be bankrupted by covid 19 ICU treatment if they need it (which would be very expensive). I assume they still qualify for whatever subsidies they would be eligible for if they had gotten any other illness, and they would still have their medical savings account(medisave). I was looking at purchasing covid 19 travel insurance for my DH who is British when we travel to Singapore next year as he is not eligible for any subsidies and it is possible so it medical insurance companies are probably still covering covid 19 treatment under their policies. Though I do note that for the health insurance policy I do hold (the basic one as I live in London but need to have insurance in Singapore as I still have citizenship), it only covers covid 19 treatment for vaccinated persons.

However I expect if they do end up in the ICU, there is a possibility of running up thousands that have to be paid for out of pocket.

I do think it's fair. I mean the government doesn't provide free medical treatment for any other condition, why should they provide it to non vaxxers?

Part of me does think that this would encourage the older people to get vaccinated. Like my grandma, many older people get their medical bills paid for by their kids. This would send a lot of their kids in a flutter and they are going to tell their parents- mum, you are usually so stingy you don't even want to pay an extra cent for anything but now your decision not to vaccinate is really going to hit me in the wallet big time!

Absolutely right and fair enough

It’s fair - in Singapore.
Not in the U.K. because U.K. healthcare is ‘free’ and you can’t discriminate against one conditions

@hyperbyke sorry @HermioneWeasley is wrong. I grew up in Singapore and there is no points system. You have mandatory health insurance and you contribute every month to a savings account (20% from you, 17% from employer) that also covers pension, property, healthcare. You also get subsidized healthcare depending on the ward you choose and how much you pay also is means tested based on your personal situation (income level, property value). Generally if you need a GP, you go to the polyclinic which is free for low income people or charge a small fee. I have always gone to a private gp and my British DH was there the last time we visited, he got charged the equivalent of £7 for a consultation (no idea if they charged me less as my family have been going there for over 20 years).

@MissTrip82 my friend is a doctor in Singapore and she says they have never denied treatment to anyone because of financial limitations. This also applies to covid non vaccinated patients. It is why my aunt who was on a low income in singapore got her cancer treatment so speedily (she recovered from cancer twice), the doctors don't do the billing themselves. That is the responsibility of the hospital administrators and there are subsidies available to pay for what insurance/mandatory savings scheme can't cover. In the end, if there is some shortfall, that still has nothing to do with the medical outcome..

I think this move is cautionary. Ok don't get vaccinated but expect some medical bills that you may not be comfortable with especially if you are not low income and don't qualify for Maximum subsidies.

[quote onlychildhamster]@MissTrip82 my friend is a doctor in Singapore and she says they have never denied treatment to anyone because of financial limitations. This also applies to covid non vaccinated patients. It is why my aunt who was on a low income in singapore got her cancer treatment so speedily (she recovered from cancer twice), the doctors don't do the billing themselves. That is the responsibility of the hospital administrators and there are subsidies available to pay for what insurance/mandatory savings scheme can't cover. In the end, if there is some shortfall, that still has nothing to do with the medical outcome..

I think this move is cautionary. Ok don't get vaccinated but expect some medical bills that you may not be comfortable with especially if you are not low income and don't qualify for Maximum subsidies.[/quote]
Yeah. Nobody’s going to be left dying on the streets. Even in surrounding countries people get treated first then billed later