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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think a soap shop shouldn't be encouraging young girls to self harm?

544 replies

Elleexxtra · 09/11/2021 12:23

Lush Paddington are giving out binders, meaning girls can self harm without any danger of their parents knowing and being able to discuss potential issues with them.

www.instagram.com/lushpaddington/

AIBU to think young girls shouldn't be groomed to hate their bodies?

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 11/11/2021 21:52

@KurtWilde's argument seems to be that the provision for children in this area is lacking therefore any help, however misguided, harmful, dangerous or downright wrong, is better than nothing hmm

In actual fact, if we are talking about treatment for children who have identified themselves as trans, watchful waiting is actually one of the recommended treatment routes. Of course, supported by mental health support.

I am sure though that Kurt would’ve come back with that information, extremely well educated in this topic involving a group of young females who might be binding as they keep saying they are.

BrightYellowDaffodil · 11/11/2021 22:02

Of course, supported by mental health support.

You mean...someone other (and more qualified) than a soap shop?

Helleofabore · 11/11/2021 22:07

BrightYellowDaffodil

Oh… well now… we have been assured by a Lush employee that they are well trained.

I am quite sure they can cover that ground as well!

Wouldn’t it be absolutely grand if Lush actually gave money to provide direct mental health support by professionals to young females! Now THAT would be a campaign I’d get behind.

Courtier · 11/11/2021 22:41

I mean they're selling them really. You have to donate £7 to get one

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 11/11/2021 23:06

I agree Courtier, but I wonder if classing it as a "donation" in this way means legislation granting customer protection, like the right to a refund for a faulty item, doesn't apply.

I'm very concerned about their terms and conditions, which I quote here. So if teenagers realise they've bought binders that are too small, aren't they going to feel obliged to just carry on wearing it?

Disclaimers
- We ask that you make sure you have your correct measurements as we can't do refunds/exchanges!
- Only one binder per person.
- Due to availability we will not always be able to provide your preferred style or colour of binder but we will have stock of all sizes available.

FlyingOink · 12/11/2021 01:14

@Courtier

I mean they're selling them really. You have to donate £7 to get one
They're £30. They are being subsidised or sold under cost price or working as loss leaders or... I dunno.

They're not £7 normally. Someone is fronting the difference.

DdraigGoch · 12/11/2021 01:46

@KurtWilde

It is exactly the opposite of transphobic to suggest that girls who are suffering from body dysmorphia to the extent that wish to permanently flatten their breasts should receive proper care from professional not equipment from a soap shop.

Do you have any idea how long it takes to access that care? How long waiting lists are to be assessed by a gender clinic? Is it any wonder young trans men and women take things into their own hands?

Do you have any idea how long the waiting list is for cataract surgery? Perhaps Lush should hand out DIY surgery kits. Never mind checking whether or not the person sticking the scalpel into their own eye actually had cataracts in the first place.
Helleofabore · 12/11/2021 09:41

OP, just on the subject of educating ourselves, I know that is not a thread specifically about trans as such, but females who identify as trans do form a major part of the group in the UK that bind their breasts.

I have just listened to this video which is a person interviewing Helen Joyce about her book ‘Trans’ and it is really good for anyone who actually doesn’t know much about what is happening to our teens at the moment.

In it she mentions that researchers estimate that around 10% of a school aged (not sure what particular age range) identified as trans and that around parts of the UK this is also a good estimate. 10%! And remember, this is not just transboys this is whatever fits under stonewall’s umbrella and there are those under the umbrella who bind just as much as transboys.

Anyway, Helen Joyce who has done great research for her book goes though this throughout this interview.

Just in case anyone who is new to this wants an easy primer.

(And here is a current thread where the OP ‘s year 10 form has ALL the girls identifying as NB - I would suggest a large number of those will be or feel they should be binding.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4398790-Year-10-daughter-advice-please-non-binary )

Helleofabore · 12/11/2021 09:49

Sorry, she clarified. 14-15 year olds in liberal cities.

BrightYellowDaffodil · 12/11/2021 10:02

@Helleofabore

Oh… well now… we have been assured by a Lush employee that they are well trained. I am quite sure they can cover that ground as well!

Why not? The waiting list for mental health treatment generally is quite long, so perhaps they could offer CBT alongside the bath bombs? In fact, why stop there? There's quite a waiting list for joint replacements, so pop up an operating table next to the soaps and get cracking while customers wait for their orders to be packed up. GP surgeries have big backlogs so perhaps one of their trained employees could have a look at that rash/boil/gangrenous toe while extolling the virtues of face packs?

The possibilities are endless.

bakingdemon · 12/11/2021 10:04

I have liked all the critical comments under that IG post. I would encourage everyone who disagrees with this to do the same, and write to them directly too. They need to hear that this is not acceptable.

AnOldCynic · 12/11/2021 10:59

[quote Elleexxtra]@AnOldCynic
They're going through deleting negative comments on insta[/quote]
Comment still there 👍

Elleextra · 12/11/2021 11:18

They've deleted most of the ones at the top so you have to scroll a long way to see anything negative.
I'm not clued up on insta though, I may be wrong

Helleofabore · 12/11/2021 12:46

Here is an article in the Critic by Joan Smith, Human Rights activist and a powerful voice in violence against women and children.

thecritic.co.uk/arrest-the-chest/

This is just part of it.

Why on earth would any company effectively encourage girls to reject their perfectly healthy bodies? It is not hard to discern a bandwagon effect, driven by the way in which breast binding is being normalised — glamourised, even — by celebrities such as Emma Corrin, who played Princess Diana in The Crown. Diana famously suffered from an eating disorder associated with body dysphoria, a parallel that seems to have been lost on Corrin when she posted black and white photos of herself wearing a home-made binder on social media. “Very intimate, very new, very cool,” Corrin declared, apparently unaware that denying or disavowing the female body is as old as the hills.

And

Lush is easy to mock, boasting about its ethics as though its primary function is much more than selling soap with fancy names. “Our ability to create a warm and welcoming home, a safe environment where difference is accepted and fostered, is maybe our single greatest strength,” it claims. How breast binders fit into that ethos is unclear, but a bit more acceptance of the natural female body would be welcome. What can we expect next, a nicely wrapped foot-binding kit?

Well worth a read.

DdraigGoch · 12/11/2021 14:47

@Elleexxtra

To be fair to posters objecting to the term self harm I think they have a point.

The term is traditionally associated with a very deliberate act, the effects of which are well known to the person doing it. It has very emotive connotations.

Binding is marketed as something else, something positive, and even though I consider it harmful and the harm is being done to the self I don't think the motivation is the same.

Maybe it should be AIBU to think a soap shop shouldn't be encouraging young girls to use harmful binders?

"Constrictor" seems like a more accurate term.
GreyhoundG1rl · 12/11/2021 14:52

Our ability to create a warm and welcoming home
What is this shite?!
Do people go into Lush to buy bath bombs, or to relax with a nice cup of tea and a fairy cake in front of a big roaring fire?

BloodinGutters · 12/11/2021 14:58

@GreyhoundG1rl

Our ability to create a warm and welcoming home What is this shite?! Do people go into Lush to buy bath bombs, or to relax with a nice cup of tea and a fairy cake in front of a big roaring fire?
Even if they did it’s definitely not ‘warm & welcoming’ to the young women abused during cruelty free kisses or lush going naked.
TheChiefJo · 13/11/2021 05:34

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

"I agree Courtier, but I wonder if classing it as a "donation" in this way means legislation granting customer protection, like the right to a refund for a faulty item, doesn't apply."

I exspect it makes a difference for tax too.

Helleofabore · 14/11/2021 09:47

Apparently the scheme has been ‘put on hold’ to tweak ‘logistics’. Meanwhile, there are peaceful protests happening in front of the store.

And letters have been written by lawyers asking for specifics on safeguarding which if not answered will mean referral of LUSH to the relevant government bodies for breaches to safeguarding regulations.

And still no links to ‘educate’ us. I think we can now safely assume the word ‘educate’ was being used in an emotionally manipulative way against people who simply don’t agree with posters on this board.

It is good to see though that the store involved has been forced to give pause to reconsider their actions and the ‘logistics’.

Helleofabore · 14/11/2021 09:57

For anyone who does want access to studies about the negative impact of binding, this new site that has pulled together different studies and statistics on these subjects is very useful.

www.statsforgender.org/binding/

There is also a study linked there about the abnormal measured lung functions while wearing a binder. Where the binder is proven to restrict breathing.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 14/11/2021 10:46

Can't see any reason why that could be an issue during a pandemic of a novel respiratory virus. [/sarcasm]

1u1a · 14/11/2021 11:03

I find this whole thing unbelievable. Has the world gone mad? I certainly won’t be shopping in Lush again, that’s for sure. A ‘warm home’ indeed Grin More like jumping on a (misguided) bandwagon for publicity. Could they be any further up their own arses. Never heard such sanctimonious bollocks in my life. Hope they go bankrupt ASAP.

everythingthelighttouches · 14/11/2021 11:04

Absolutely disgusting.

Out of interest

Why aren’t breast binders a regulated medical device???

I’m actually tempted to write to the MHRA to learn more.

everythingthelighttouches · 14/11/2021 11:11

According to the Medical Devices Regulations 2002 (SI 2002 No 618, as amended) (UK MDR 2002), a medical device is described as any instrument, apparatus, appliance, software, material or other article, whether used alone or in combination, together with any accessories, including the software intended by its manufacturer to be used specifically for diagnosis or therapeutic purposes or both and necessary for its proper application, which is intended by the manufacturer to be used for human beings for the purpose of:

diagnosis, prevention, monitoring, treatment or alleviation of disease
diagnosis, monitoring, treatment, alleviation of or compensation for an injury or handicap
investigation, replacement or modification of the anatomy or of a physiological process, or
control of conception

www.gov.uk/guidance/medical-devices-how-to-comply-with-the-legal-requirements

My bolding

BloodinGutters · 14/11/2021 11:29

If they were recommended for use by medical professionals then there would be investigations into safety. And as the research shows they can’t be used without 97% reports of serious physical harm.