AIBU to think a soap shop shouldn't be encouraging young girls to self harm?

[Elleexxtra]

Lush Paddington are giving out binders, meaning girls can self harm without any danger of their parents knowing and being able to discuss potential issues with them.

www.instagram.com/lushpaddington/

AIBU to think young girls shouldn't be groomed to hate their bodies?

Purgatory there are really no words are there

What do you mean self harm??? You know, girls actually self harm. All the time. Cutting and burning and scratching, etc. Wearing a binder is not self harm. Do you know what a binder is? It's for your breasts, so for if girls want their breasts to look smaller or if non-binary teens born female want their breasts not to be visible. It's not self harm, binders that are made and sold by actual shops are designed not to restrict breathing or cause any health problems. If these binders aren't sold, teens do things like wrap bandages tightly round their breasts instead, which is harmful and unhealthy. Binders don't harm the teens in any way, and I actually find it offensive that you're using the term self harm to describe girls choosing to wear binders, as girls actually self harm, my daughter actually self harms, and I almost died from actually self harming. Please do your research.

Having read up on binders since my last post, I'd like to retract what I said about binders being healthy as they can be damaging to health. However you can get binders that aren't at all damaging to health, and if these binders aren't sold then teens will use other things to bind instead, and these could be REALLY damaging. I stand by everything I said about this use of the term self harm

Alcoholism is still alcoholism whether you drink a 600 pound bottle of 200 yr aged whisky a day or you sit on a park bench with a 6 pack of special brew having not showered in 2 weeks.

Its still drug addiction whether you shoot up with heroin or take too much of your dr prescribed pain killers.

Amd it's still self harm whether u use a rusty razor blade u found at the back of your grandma's cupboard or you buy a binder from someone who owns a website witg smiling happy people on it.

The form.with which the harm.takes place makes no difference .

That's what they all say. Mentally ill people who are in denial will say that their behaviour doesn't count as X because its different some how. Or someone has managed to convince you it's different somehow.

The end result is the same. The body is harmed. Doesn't matter how it happened. The fact ot may or may not be less harm than something else or some other way , doesn't mean its not harm either.

5 paracetamol at once is still an overdose . You may well be absolutely fine as a result but its no less an overdose than taking 10 or 20.

@emma342

What do you mean self harm??? You know, girls actually self harm. All the time. Cutting and burning and scratching, etc. Wearing a binder is not self harm. Do you know what a binder is? It's for your breasts, so for if girls want their breasts to look smaller or if non-binary teens born female want their breasts not to be visible. It's not self harm, binders that are made and sold by actual shops are designed not to restrict breathing or cause any health problems. If these binders aren't sold, teens do things like wrap bandages tightly round their breasts instead, which is harmful and unhealthy. Binders don't harm the teens in any way, and I actually find it offensive that you're using the term self harm to describe girls choosing to wear binders, as girls actually self harm, my daughter actually self harms, and I almost died from actually self harming. Please do your research.

How is painfully squashing your breasts so that they cant grow properly not self harm? Have you seen what a binder can do, how much it can actually flatten the breasts? That is physically impossible to do without harming the breasts over time. And what about getting your healthy breast tissue chopped off completely, self-harming or not? If not, why not? Because a surgeon has done it for you?

Also, how come 'non-binary' for males like Owen Hurcum means dyeing your hair green and sometimes 'femmeing up' by wearing a skirt, but for girls it means making possibly painful and irreversible changes to your body?

@emma342

Having read up on binders since my last post, I'd like to retract what I said about binders being healthy as they can be damaging to health. However you can get binders that aren't at all damaging to health, and if these binders aren't sold then teens will use other things to bind instead, and these could be REALLY damaging. I stand by everything I said about this use of the term self harm

Did you read all the research on the links on this thread?

The exact brand lush are promoting is the one that 97% of all wearers report health problems, including breathing so badly restricted they pass out, broken ribs, nipples detaching from breast tissue and chronic pain.

So a shop with zero medical training and zero safeguarding training is going to provide girls, who can not get these sent to their house, who can not get these binders exchanged if they aren’t correct fit, with the exact brand that causes all the above harm.

However you can get binders that aren't at all damaging to health

Would they be minimising BRAs? Ie. Not binders.

If you came onto this thread and said that these girls don’t know there are harming themselves, well we could talk about the meaning of self harm.

Either way, these girls are choosing to wear binders or to bind in other ways and doing this to themselves.

Either way, the harm of these binders are being downplayed. By a group who either have a vested interest, or out of ignorance because they have not looked at the product themselves and have also read the same spoonfed lies from lobby groups.

Stop the minimising.

The answer is for us all to go get them and cut them up in front of the shop.

Would they be minimising BRAs? Ie. Not binders

Funny how thousands of women are wearing the wrong size bras all the time. Every time I've ever tried to book a cra fit it's been several days before I can get a slot. All the major retailers are usually pretty fully booked with regards to fitting appointments.

All those women and girls who need measuring and re fitting and who have realised they aren't comfortable and wearing the wrong size.

And that, is with access to the time money and location to go get professionally measured/fitted. And thats also with someone who can see u. Who can check for you. And lay eyes on you in the bra.

Yet we are supoosed to simultaneously believe that kids without access to anyone to help them.besides a stranger on a web chat or phone who only has the words of a child to go on, will somehow get the right size amd perfect fit with no one buy a mate who may also be in the wrong size having git advice from more strangers on reddit.

Its amazing how anything related to this will always be a result of the most desirable collection of circumstances. Combinations of events and luck that people just buying a t shirt from amazon don't even always get.

However you can get binders that aren't at all damaging to health, and if these binders aren't sold then teens will use other things to bind instead, and these could be REALLY damaging

I know it's counter-intuitive, but it's not actually certain that homemade methods would be worse.

extract

What people use to bind their chests with is a very personal choice, and finding a standard “best type of binder” for everyone is unclear. One study showed that people who used commercial binders experienced increased risk for the highest number of negative symptoms from binding, followed by those who used bandages, and plastic wrap or duct tape(2).

The high amount of negative effects found from commercial binders in this study were a surprise to the researchers, since blogs and other informal resources dedicated to trans men and healthy binding often recommend commercial binders (2,4). This could be due to people wearing binders that are too small, wearing them for longer periods, or wearing more than one at a time. More research is needed, but if you choose to wear a commercial binder, do your research, read reviews online, and make sure it is the right size for you.

[bold mine]

helloclue.com/articles/cycle-a-z/chest-binding-tips-and-tricks-for-trans-men-nonbinary-and-genderfluid

Have you seen what a binder can do

To be fair. I have only ever read it and never seen images. Even on duck duck go there are no images, no diagrams.

Simply just writing the words will not get the message across to a visual generation.

And it seems there is only that one study into the negative effects of binding too. Why?

• any study into the negative effects of breast binding would have been seen as transphobic. Just as researching detransition rates is posited as transphobic.

• if you have read Invisible Women you will know that medicine is often misogynistic in studying female health. This is no different. The rapid increase of use has meant many researchers are not aware of the need to produce research.

But, stick ‘negative health risks for breast binding’ into any search engine Look at what you get. You can’t tell me that technology giants are not complicit here. That lobby groups are not complicit here.

No wonder these girls don’t understand the harm they do. Adults have been very careful to hide that harm.

That brings me back to waiting to be educated by Kurt and others.

To tell us exactly how they would look directly into the eyes of their 11/12/13/14/15 year old daughter and tell them that there is x% (and numbers please Kurt) chance that they will desist from identifying as trans (ALL the genders under the umbrella, Kurt that bind) and that some people think that the large proportion (we know it IS a larger proportion that desists than persists) of girls damaging their breasts is acceptable collateral for the sake of others.

And that when they reach adulthood and lament their damaged bodies and health, it was all THEIR fault because other adults decided that they were old enough to understand the risks (those that are hidden on page gazillion of the search on the internet) and have autonomy over their harmful body decisions.

I will continue to wait for that evidence that I ask for. Because Kurt has insisted numerous times that we are uneducated and need to educate yourselves.

But… can only so far produce anecdotes that have nothing to do with this cohort of young females.

As an example of the lack of information or the downplaying of negative effects, we can use the Nonsuch High School’s newsletter. The thread I posted the information from the links has been deleted (the existing one is a different one). But This is from Safe Schools Alliance.

This page contains a sidebar, added without any comment or context, titled “How Do I Bind Safely?”, with 3 links listed underneath.

A Nonsuch student clicking on A Guide To Binding Safely — Ygender will find information that tells her that breast-binding is empowering, good for mental health, and makes people happy.

The second link is a How-To guide: Binding Safely: Tips for All Body Types & Sizes | Point 5cc. This instructs girls with larger breasts in how to push “their tissue” out of the way before flattening it with a garment that is difficult to get on and should not be worn for more than 8 hours.

Both of the above links give very little detail on the negative side effects of binding, such as compressed or broken ribs, punctured or collapsed lungs, back pain, compression of the spine, damaged breast tissue, damaged blood vessels, blood clots, inflamed ribs, and even heart attacks.

The third link, to prideinpractice.org/articles/chest-binding-physician-guide/… acknowledges that there are side effects, but goes on to suggest that the solution to this can be to remove the breasts entirely:

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/2021/05/09/breast-binding-at-nonsuch-high/

This type of minimising of the effects is very common. This is why we keep getting posters telling us we are scaremongering and that we are haters and uneducated. Because these posters either have a vested interest to not acknowledge the harms or they have only read about it superficially from a biased media.

We have the right to be fucking angry about this!

www.google.com/amp/s/destroyyourbinder.tumblr.com/post/146632633924/i-talk-about-my-relationship-with-breast-binding/amp

This user actually describes it as self harm, very similar to cutting.

This is awful.

This is puzzling, even more so taking into account that Lush is not a corporation, but it has founders who presumably are still in charge?

From the link Belle posted:

Some days, I imagine my breasts as so revolting that they must be boils full of pus, or full of rotting skin and maggots. I have intrusive thoughts about removing them myself, and these feelings have even gone so far as to make me obsessively study breast anatomy in detail. I still get glimpses of myself in the mirror or my shadow on the wall, and I’m filled with nausea and terror knowing that this is how other people see me, and that I can’t escape this body without paying thousands of dollars to have a doctor with a scalpel perform an invasive, life-altering medical procedure in which my breasts are cut from my body… and destroyed.

This is serious mental illness requiring therapy and support, not a harmful product handed out by unqualified people, which simply reinforces and entrenches the obsession!

Poor girls 😥

That blog is heartbreaking.

How do we expect girls to live with their bodies when even the family place so many connotations on it.

I've said this before but I've seen it on here and on face book/twitter pages where the first response to the signs that a child is developing often perfectly normally if just slightly earlier than they would like, is not to support and prepare prepare child but to drag them down the drs , or impose arbitrary age cut offs or adult associations to things designed to deal with it.

The phrase she mentioned " becoming a woman" I hate it. I hate it so much. A child with periods and breasts is a child. They aren't becoming anything yet.

What hope do these girls have of developing healthy relationships with their perfectly natural normal bodies when parents place such restrictions and negative associations on the things they need. And the natural development of a healthy body.When adults would rather a child was uncomfortable and self conscious in an unsupportive vest than buying a bra. Or they buy a bra but don't like the moulding designed to provide cushioning and a smoother/more even outline while things are developing unevenly, so they are stuck with thin fabric instead.

And fir what reason? A parents worry men will look? A parents inability to differentiate between a bit of moulding and a wonderbra? Some idea that 9/10/11 is too young for any if it ajd the problem.is their body not societies hang ups?

We do this to girls, make them take responsibility for the men who can't control themselves and the disapproval of aduot women who do display and enhance breasts with underwear , by placing all those associations to basic functional items of clothing. All this on the shoulders if a 9 yr old. If parents cant cope how do we expect the kids too.

And then everyone's thrilled the problem is solved in a damaging way , a literally permanently damaging way in a high streat cosmetics store.

So I'm guessing Lush would endorse breast ironing? Even though, in this article, the police said they would do something about that if they knew about it... ?

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/jan/26/revealed-dozens-of-girls-subjected-to-breast-ironing-in-uk

I remember reading that story in the Guardian. Mind you, it is from almost 3 years ago. I wonder what the paper's attitude is now.

I also wonder what its attitude to binding is.

Perhaps the paper is now silent on breast ironing because it has realised that publishing stories critical of it on the one hand and pushing the genderist agenda, of which breast binding is a major part, on the other looked a bit racist. As ironing is practised by African people.

Just wanted to point out the cheapest binder on the gc2b UK website is £30.

So somebody, either a charity or Lush or the manufacturer, is subsidising these.

So subsidising child self harm......wonderful

@FlyingOink

Just wanted to point out the cheapest binder on the gc2b UK website is £30.

So somebody, either a charity or Lush or the manufacturer, is subsidising these.

That is very concerning thought too oink.

I thought Lush couldn't do anything worse than their overbearing assistants and the repugnant smell but here we are...they really should stick to just selling smelly soap.

@Beowulfa

For anyone new to this who is alarmed at being called "transphobic", please be aware that you can be labelled "transphobic" for the following:

-knowing that Homo sapiens is a biologically dimorphic species that reproduces sexually (ie there are two sexes; males producing sperm and females producing eggs)- sub-GCSE level Science
-thinking that people with penises shouldn't be in women's changing rooms
-thinking that people who've been through male puberty shouldn't be in women's sports
-wanting to prioritise safeguarding for minors in the context of single sex toilets, changing rooms and sleeping arangements on residential trips
-thinking female rape and domestic violence survivors have the right to female-only support spaces
-thinking that experimental medication (puberty blockers) should be subject to strict and regular clinical/ethical reviews
-knowing that "lesbian" means a female who is attracted to other females

I'd like to think none of the above is novel, complicated or unreasonable.

Well I know that is not unreasonable, and you know that is not unreasonable. But there's a whole host of people out there for whom this is heresy and therefore you must be burned as a witch- cancelled.

@KurtWilde's argument seems to be that the provision for children in this area is lacking therefore any help, however misguided, harmful, dangerous or downright wrong, is better than nothing