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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think a soap shop shouldn't be encouraging young girls to self harm?

544 replies

Elleexxtra · 09/11/2021 12:23

Lush Paddington are giving out binders, meaning girls can self harm without any danger of their parents knowing and being able to discuss potential issues with them.

www.instagram.com/lushpaddington/

AIBU to think young girls shouldn't be groomed to hate their bodies?

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 10/11/2021 12:01

@Ozanj

This will probably get stopped soon as peddlers take up the bindings and start selling them online.
they already do. No age verification needed. The girls get them delivered to their friends houses.

One asked my tween (at the time) if they would take delivery for them. The answer was no. But I realise that another friend did with no questions asked.

BloodinGutters · 10/11/2021 12:11

[quote autisticMNer]@KurtWilde I've said in a previous post that I have experienced dysmorphia. I felt desperate during puberty and still don't feel comfortable about having breasts in middle age. I feel pretty sure I'd have been put on a trans pathway if I was a teenager now. I can understand the attraction of binding because I'd like to have no breasts. BUT I'm not trans, I'm glad I was never in a position of making decisions where I couldn't have understood the risks or the long term implications.

So it's wrong to suggest that this is an issue only affecting a small number of people who are genuinely trans (by which I mean people with a permanent feeling of gender dysphoria), and not also girls struggling with becoming women in a misogynist culture, or girls with other MH struggles or conditions (including autism) who might be led to see this as some kind of solution.

And I don't think you are addressing the specific issue of this being a soap shop with staff unqualified in supporting and safeguarding young people. Even if I thought breast binding was a positive thing for trans girls, I would want them to be provided by specialist mental health professionals, not by pushy sales assistants with no training.[/quote]
I really appreciate your reply to my post up thread. I meant to say so.

I also would have ended up on the trans pathway. Survivor of repeated csa, I have adhd (not autism but a lot of shared sensory issues and anxieties) hit puberty very very young, and found it very traumatic that in primary 5 I was the only girl who had to wear a bra and use the teachers toilet (because no sanitary bin in kids).

I would have done anything to get rid of my growing female body. I wore two sports bras and hid in bag ts & hoodies.

Yet I bf twins for nearly 3 years & the idea I would have given that up because of how society treated me because of my female body is very upsetting.

Both my girls have autism and huge sensory issues around anything to do with their bodies. Puberty will be very hard, even though they’ve had a very safe and sheltered life and a loving supportive father and we’ve challenged gender socialisation and female stereotypes constantly.

It’s really scary to think they might well opt to damage their bodies this way.

The most vulnerable kids should be protected not preyed on.

Beowulfa · 10/11/2021 12:21

In any other condition a sudden, large spike in a particular demographic would arouse scientific curiosity as to the cause (if, say, there was a 4000% increase in cataracts amongst men of South Asian ethnicity in their 30s).

Why is there no desire for research into the sudden need for binders in early teen girls with ASD, but not in older women? Is it because that would involve awkward questions about society's treatement of those with ASD, the influence of social media, and attitudes to female bodies in general?

foxgoosefinch · 10/11/2021 12:22

Ah, @KurtWilde, but what about all the nonbinary girls and the gay girls and who bind but won’t be going down that “medical pathway”? What about the trans women (most of them) who don’t want “bottom surgery”? Very transphobic, nonbinaryphobic and homophobic of you to assume LGBT+ are all the same, frankly, you should educate yourself. You are making huge generalisations about a complex group of people.

Seriously, one of the glaring things that’s happening at the moment is that stomping about demanding others “educate themselves” and shouting “transphobia!” and doing the “I’m disappointed in you” dance, is that the gap between some very dubious practices that are being extolled as “choices”, but are in fact opportunities to capture markets, sell things m and promote a fantasy ideology to young people, is becoming more and more visible.

And the more demands to “educate yourselves”, the more women read and find out what is really going on. It’s extremely counterproductive, you know.

I read a lot of comments on the Insta page and Twitter, and most of the laudatory ones were all about the virtues of bodily autonomy and people’s (girls’) own choices to harm themselves. Full of the language of consumerism and the market. And these young people don’t see how much this is a capitalist, consumerist ideology - anything an individual wants is fine, fill that gap in the market! If people want it, sell it! The market is morally neutral, individual choice and desire is all! They choose it, it’s their body, so butt out, interfering old bags!

It’s extreme capitalist right wingery masquerading as progressiveness. Very clever - for capitalists and individualists. Most of those (literally) buying into it probably think of themselves as left wing, though. Which is strange. Almost as if they don’t quite think about what they are being sold. Or understand how they are being manipulated. There’s no advertising standards authority for gender ideology, though, or any consumer rights where you can return the body damage if it all goes wrong.

foxgoosefinch · 10/11/2021 12:31

*I used to get Cosmetics-to-Go (Lush's predecessor) catalogues and read them in the bath with my Ceridwen's Cauldron. Ginger perfume reminds me of my uni days as a strong, independent and fiercely feminist woman.

It's sad to see what C-T-G has turned in to.*

@Elleexxtra - me too; I loved CTG! Even visited their original Poole shop in the early 90s! Think I still even have a bottle of Neroli hair wash somewhere

It’s sad that they became this.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 10/11/2021 12:36

Me too, for C-T-G I met them at The Clothes Show at the NEC (ye gods but that is ageing me).

I am often angry at what it became after the management change.

FortunesFavour · 10/11/2021 12:46

Great post @foxgoosefinch, bang on.

KurtWilde · 10/11/2021 13:28

@foxgoosefinch no need to shake your head for me dear, I have seen the hardships trans people go through, I call one sister for starters. My good colleague is a trans man. And I worked with young trans people when I worked at the hostel. Education on their struggles was paramount.

Of course some don't go down the medical pathways. It's a huge step and doesn't always work. And then they have to live with that decision.

The fact is it's a sad state of affairs when there isn't easily accessible help for trans and non binary people, and places such as LUSH shouldn't be demonised for trying to help.

foxgoosefinch · 10/11/2021 13:29

I just wonder if Kurtwilde and others posters who think it’s great would also think it was okay if Lush offered:

  • breast binders and pop-in info from non-medical volunteers, specifically for overweight or large-breasted teenage girls who don’t like the idea of having large breasts and think they might want breast reduction surgery when they turn 18 (a very complex operation with potentially serious side effects)?
  • a partnership with a cosmetic surgery clinic to offer advice and discounts on injectables, fillers, Botox, liposuction and implants to girls who have body dysmorphic disorder or who otherwise are suffering depression about their bodies being flat-chested, wonky noses etc.?

Are either of those acceptable? Or is there a reason why body issues connected with gender are especially different from those other things?

Elleexxtra · 10/11/2021 13:32

The fact is it's a sad state of affairs when there isn't easily accessible help for trans and non binary people, and places such as LUSH shouldn't be demonised for trying to help.

Lush are not trying to help

They are trying to profit

OP posts:
Elleexxtra · 10/11/2021 13:32

And, again, this is t about trans people

It's about girls

OP posts:
foxgoosefinch · 10/11/2021 13:33

[quote KurtWilde]@foxgoosefinch no need to shake your head for me dear, I have seen the hardships trans people go through, I call one sister for starters. My good colleague is a trans man. And I worked with young trans people when I worked at the hostel. Education on their struggles was paramount.

Of course some don't go down the medical pathways. It's a huge step and doesn't always work. And then they have to live with that decision.

The fact is it's a sad state of affairs when there isn't easily accessible help for trans and non binary people, and places such as LUSH shouldn't be demonised for trying to help. [/quote]
A soap shop, a profit making company, should be offering unlicensed medical products to teenagers suffering from mental health issues? That’s trying to help?

Why don’t we get staff at Tesco to offer counselling for depression, then; or maybe Thornton’s could run diabetes advice from the shop staff on the side?

B&Q could try to help the CAMHS crisis with pop up child ADHD diagnoses at the till. Why not!

Whatwouldscullydo · 10/11/2021 13:33

The fact is it's a sad state of affairs when there isn't easily accessible help for trans and non binary people, and places such as LUSH shouldn't be demonised for trying to help

But they aren't helping are they.

They haven't- trained staff to advise

They haven't funded medical services

They haven't provided a safe place for a comsult in the stores.

These girls are customers and they get woke points. That's as far as it goes.

Their responsibility ends once the binder is out the door. Job done. Regardless of damage /harm /mistakes made.

In what planet is that help

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/11/2021 13:39

You keep speaking of transmen.

Over and over.

What do you think of binders being sold (with no refund or exchange possible) to female teens who identify as non-binary?

BloodinGutters · 10/11/2021 13:39

@foxgoosefinch

Don’t forget handing out control substance that’s the first line of treatment for Adhd.

I personally would love to pick up mine & my child’s ritilin when shopping. Starbucks would be way more convenient for me though if you could. Drive through preferably.

No need to see a prescribing psych or to have 3monthly weight, bp & pulse checks or 6 monthly reviews. No need to follow the strict regulations around only supplying a max 28 day supply of controlled substances.

MrsWooster · 10/11/2021 13:40

@KurtWilde

Items to support them in presenting as male gender are haircuts and chaps’ pants, minimising sports bras and baggy T-shirt’s. Not binders which destroy breast tissue and inhibit breathing, offered via a trendy soap shop.

Good lord. You do realise that a trans man will be having a double mastectomy when they're on the transition path? Their breasts are a hinderance, nothing more.

My very close colleague is a trans man. He started binding properly at 18 but had done so unsuccessfully before that. Despite seeing the GP and asking for referral to the gender clinic he waited another 2 years before that happened. He then had to prove to the GIC that he'd been living full time as a man for a further 2 years before they'd consider him for hormone treatment and the start of the surgery pathway that can take years to complete. I remember his euphoria at finally not having to bind anymore because his double mastectomy had been booked, and the resulting holiday snaps of him shirtless by the pool in Spain just BEAMING.

Just as their penis is an unwanted appendage to a trans woman. The lengths they go to to hide the male genitalia (usually in the form of pushing the testicles back inside the body and using extra tight support underwear to properly tuck the penis) also causes tissue damage. restriction and shrinkage.

Which is why I'm forced to shake my head in disbelief when women have this idea that a trans woman in the women's changing rooms must be flashing a penis in their faces. After it's taken them so long in the morning to properly organise post-op genitalia in order to pass, the last thing they want to do is undo that work while trying on a pair of jeans. Then there's the months and months of laser facial hair removal, the months of voice training, not to mention the anguish of knowing how long the waiting list is for surgery and all the dangers that come with it.

I have a family member who is a trans woman. If she took a dress into Primark changing rooms to try on, you'd pass her by without even a second glance. She's absolutely no risk to you whatsoever and neither are the majority of trans people. She would, however, be at risk in the male changing rooms. Would you all be ok with that? Because shame on you if so.

Binding isn't primarily aimed at young girls wanting to 'hide' their burgeoning breasts to stop being sexually objectified by men. I'm not saying that doesn't happen with some small percentage of girls, but if it does I would question the parenting. A parent who only shares horror stories of men, and constantly talks about them as if they're all monsters out to rape and abuse, produces girls who are afraid to be girls. You reap what you sow.

Trans men are not girls who are afraid to be girls, they do not identify as male to stop them being objectified by men, they do it because they feel like they ARE MEN. Not even sure why I need to explain that.

I remember when I worked in a hostel, a 19yo trans man ended up with us because his dad had found his bindings, and a small bag of male toiletries. He'd held him down and shaved his head, saying 'you want to be a man eh? This is what men look like..' and then thrown him out. This was once the 'daughter' he doted on, but out of fear of how people would react, out of his own ignorance, he was happy to throw his own child out of their home.

And as for labelling binding as self harm, stop. That's insensitive and almost dismissive of ACTUAL self harm. Many trans people actually DO self harm, because of the bigotry they face even from their own families. But do not confuse the two.

And for fucks sake EDUCATE yourself. Thank god I actually raised my DC as inclusive, understanding human beings who have properly informed opinions rather than basing them on ignorant and often unfounded fears.

You chose my post to anchor your diatribe, so I will respond: you describe posters on this thread as having “ignorant and unfounded fears” yet your post reveals a terrifying ignorance of the wider issues around trans at the moment. You repeatedly reference the trans people YOU have known but refuse to engage with the posters offering solid data on children who identify as trans and then desist. You reference transwomen and girls who tuck and suffer agonising dysphoria but ignore the vast majority who do neither. You boast of your child rearing prowess in raising children who are “inclusive, understanding human beings”: if they are then it is in spite of you not because of you because I believe ignorant, uninformed zealots like you to be a danger to children.
Is like to think that one day you’ll look back at your posting on this issue and cringe in Shane but o doubt that level of decency or self awareness is available to you.
BloodinGutters · 10/11/2021 13:43

@foxgoosefinch

Do let me know the cost Starbucks will charge for this

The one nhs provides for (almost) free service.

foxgoosefinch · 10/11/2021 13:48

I imagine they won’t provide it themselves, @BloodinGutters - they could outsource it to a small “charity” with medically untrained staff, who will pop in and hand them out in exchange for a small “collection donation” by QR code, which means you haven’t really “bought” anything so there’s no contract of purchase or comeback if they don’t work, are faulty, cause harm or are used improperly.

You might find then that neither the charity nor Starbucks seem to age any legal responsibility for having provided them though, and can wiggle out of any complaints, lawsuits or issues.

foxgoosefinch · 10/11/2021 13:51

Also to @KurtWilde - if these binders for trans and nonbinary kids are appropriate and good treatment, why (a) don’t medical gender clinics or the NHS seem to recommend them? And (b) why should they be offered in secret?

People doing good for children generally don’t do things in secret. In fact there are statutory guidelines strictly against this in the Children Act. ?

BloodinGutters · 10/11/2021 13:55

@foxgoosefinch

I imagine they won’t provide it themselves, *@BloodinGutters* - they could outsource it to a small “charity” with medically untrained staff, who will pop in and hand them out in exchange for a small “collection donation” by QR code, which means you haven’t really “bought” anything so there’s no contract of purchase or comeback if they don’t work, are faulty, cause harm or are used improperly.

You might find then that neither the charity nor Starbucks seem to age any legal responsibility for having provided them though, and can wiggle out of any complaints, lawsuits or issues.

This is an excellent business model.

Think of all the students cramming for exams, working 12hr+ shifts, desperate to cut their hunger to loose weight, and all the people who would be fine using a lesser stimulant to tide them over until the can buy coke at the weekend. (And the other off licence uses …..)

We could make a fortune. No need to have an actual diagnosis of a medical condition to require medically supervised treatment is there. #transdisabilitypride

Helleofabore · 10/11/2021 13:55

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

You keep speaking of transmen.

Over and over.

What do you think of binders being sold (with no refund or exchange possible) to female teens who identify as non-binary?

I don't think that Kurt has ever acknowledged the wide variety of genders that fall under the 'trans' category and that many other females other than those that medically transition are caught up in this.

They insist we educate ourselves. Over and over.

But it really does seem to be that this poster actually is the one who needs to educate themselves because that phrase they use 'Educate yourselves' is all they have.

They cannot substantiate anything they say outside personal anecdotes.

So, on the basis of their personal anecdotes, parents should feel ashamed for asking questions, and for being angry that a cosmetics brand is now involved in distributing binders potentially to under 16 year olds.

And solidifying long term in young girls minds that binders are SO harmless you can even pick them up in Lush. And they will still continue to ignore the negative effects.

All based on kurts personal anecdotes.

Whatwouldscullydo · 10/11/2021 13:56

The big question of course is why, when.lush last time I went in anyway,.seemed very heavily gendered. Lots of pink,.glitter and scents that anyone attempting to pass as a man would not want to risk smelling like. Not that any of us actually care but appearances ajd behaviours seem to matter alot to people identifying as something interesting than their birth sex.

So I.wpypd assume its actually a pretty safe bet that transmen don't spend alot of time in lush
So who are the binders fir exactly?

And if they are so great ajd so supportive then why haven't they set it up in say game,.hmv, cex somewhere where use probably alot more likely that there will be more if a male customer base ?

Seems even lush know who to target doesnt it. That's right. Fenales/girls they don't even buy it clearly. But yeah woohoo soooo supportive ajd helpful

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 10/11/2021 13:58

[quote KurtWilde]@foxgoosefinch no need to shake your head for me dear, I have seen the hardships trans people go through, I call one sister for starters. My good colleague is a trans man. And I worked with young trans people when I worked at the hostel. Education on their struggles was paramount.

Of course some don't go down the medical pathways. It's a huge step and doesn't always work. And then they have to live with that decision.

The fact is it's a sad state of affairs when there isn't easily accessible help for trans and non binary people, and places such as LUSH shouldn't be demonised for trying to help. [/quote]
Again. Not a thread about anyone who is trans. Or about adults. Or a medical pathway. Nor fond anecdotes.

I wonder how much else it would be possible to misrepresent about this thread?

foxgoosefinch · 10/11/2021 14:08

Well I for one am impressed by your trust in the capitalist business model, @KurtWilde, as an engine of moral virtue. Very David Cameron of you.

Lush are using it as a marketing strategy for attracting their demographic, no? That's what the advertising and "collab" and Instagramming is for? Just like eg. "Stella McCartney x Topshop", creating a brand image to appeal to their target audience?

If we rephrase "Lush doing good" as instead, "company who weaponises young people's mental health issues as a marketing and advertising strategy to sell more soap to teenagers", it doesn't sound so nice, does it?

Elleexxtra · 10/11/2021 14:11

@foxgoosefinch

Well I for one am impressed by your trust in the capitalist business model, *@KurtWilde*, as an engine of moral virtue. Very David Cameron of you.

Lush are using it as a marketing strategy for attracting their demographic, no? That's what the advertising and "collab" and Instagramming is for? Just like eg. "Stella McCartney x Topshop", creating a brand image to appeal to their target audience?

If we rephrase "Lush doing good" as instead, "company who weaponises young people's mental health issues as a marketing and advertising strategy to sell more soap to teenagers", it doesn't sound so nice, does it?

Yep

It's conspicuously absent from their website

It's a stealthy, cynical social media campaign directly targeting girls.

As a pp said, dysphoric trans boys are more likely to buy lynx than lush

Pure capitalism in action

OP posts:
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