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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think a soap shop shouldn't be encouraging young girls to self harm?

544 replies

Elleexxtra · 09/11/2021 12:23

Lush Paddington are giving out binders, meaning girls can self harm without any danger of their parents knowing and being able to discuss potential issues with them.

www.instagram.com/lushpaddington/

AIBU to think young girls shouldn't be groomed to hate their bodies?

OP posts:
QueenSue · 10/11/2021 19:23

I can practically hear the sneer in the soap shop comments
But Lush is a soap shop. Bath products are your speciality. You shouldn't be selling binders.

Whatwouldscullydo · 10/11/2021 19:25

We're not all the monsters who just want £££ as we're being made out to be

No one thinks your the monsters.

You are however another example of how this predominantly affects the working class ( of which many of us are ) . You have had something put on u , that you are not qualified to talk or advise about , without the pay top ups relevant to the medical professionals/counsellors etc that right now you will be expecting to be, expected to sort in a short 10 minute visit what drs friends and family have missed/failed to do for years and there will be nothing, no insurance, no revision training class class be sent to and no security to protect you from anyone who kicks off be it concerned parents or a kid upset their binder doesn't fit.

Personally I'm pretty worried on thise fronts fir the staff too. This would not have been part if the job description when u applied and those expecting u do do this are safe and away from it all in theor offices

BloodinGutters · 10/11/2021 19:32

@Goshitstricky

I work in Lush. I can honestly say our customers are not predominantly young girls.

I haven't heard about this latest binder thing, I'll ask my manager about it tomorrow and see what's what.

Just to be clear though,

A: we don't get paid minimum wage.
B: we have a shed ton of training on all our products (not saying that would make any of us qualified to deal with issues surrounding this of course)
C: we're not asked to aggressively sell and pester customers.
D: Our Christmas sales are as good as ever.
E: I can practically hear the sneer in the soap shop comments, we (like many high street stores) have regular customers who will come in for a chat or comfort or human contact. I can think of many customers who we have helped to get skin/hair issues under control which has helped MH. We're not all the monsters who just want £££ as we're being made out to be.

When has anyone suggested the employees are monsters?

Now the company: cruelty free kisses, lush going naked, that’s fucking predatory and sexual harassment

ToykotoLosAngeles · 10/11/2021 19:34

The expectations that Lush put on their staff are grim.

mitheringsfrommorningside.wordpress.com/tag/lush-cruelty-free-kisses/

This is from 8 years ago!

ToykotoLosAngeles · 10/11/2021 19:35

Sorry, missed this was on page 6 but I am still so cross.

BloodinGutters · 10/11/2021 19:36

@ToykotoLosAngeles

The expectations that Lush put on their staff are grim.

mitheringsfrommorningside.wordpress.com/tag/lush-cruelty-free-kisses/

This is from 8 years ago!

Most of whom are younger women. Especially the staff working later on Saturdays when drunken men will be out to take advantage of this.
Elleexxtra · 10/11/2021 19:38

@Goshitstricky
I'm not sneering by calling it a soap shop, I'm pointing out it's not the place to hand out binders

I used to love lush, I took my kids there and the staff were unbelievably kind and lovely to them

My family run a local shop which is very community driven so I know there is more to it than selling

I've shopped at lush for myself so I know it's not just girls who use the products

But I'm also a mother with mother friends who knows that girls are very much a big demographic who buy and get bought for

OP posts:
Clymene · 10/11/2021 19:40

@Goshitstricky

I work in Lush. I can honestly say our customers are not predominantly young girls.

I haven't heard about this latest binder thing, I'll ask my manager about it tomorrow and see what's what.

Just to be clear though,

A: we don't get paid minimum wage.
B: we have a shed ton of training on all our products (not saying that would make any of us qualified to deal with issues surrounding this of course)
C: we're not asked to aggressively sell and pester customers.
D: Our Christmas sales are as good as ever.
E: I can practically hear the sneer in the soap shop comments, we (like many high street stores) have regular customers who will come in for a chat or comfort or human contact. I can think of many customers who we have helped to get skin/hair issues under control which has helped MH. We're not all the monsters who just want £££ as we're being made out to be.

This study didn't collect data on children visiting your store but the vast majority are very young. Nearly 40% are under 25%. If children were also included in the analysis, I'd say it was nearer 60%.

Lush's target market is ostensibly 18-30 year old ABC1s but I'd argue that a lot of their campaigns and advertising is designed to appeal to children.

Like this partnership.

AIBU to think a soap shop shouldn't be encouraging young girls to self harm?
Helleofabore · 10/11/2021 19:44

Because what adult needs to pick up a binder from Lush? They would get the binder sent to their house.

I would argue that this campaign is not aimed at people who would just get the binder delivered by mail to their door.

Testingprof · 10/11/2021 19:49

@QueenSue

I can practically hear the sneer in the soap shop comments But Lush is a soap shop. Bath products are your speciality. You shouldn't be selling binders.
They aren’t. I’ve looked at the post and they are providing a place where people can pick up a binder. They aren’t providing the advice gender swap (?) are. If you found a binder in oxfam would you attack oxfam?
GreyhoundG1rl · 10/11/2021 19:52

C: we're not asked to aggressively sell and pester customers
So you take it on yourselves to do this? Don't pretend it doesn't happen, please...

Whatwouldscullydo · 10/11/2021 19:52

Which instantly involves the staff. Whoever hands it out will be asked the questions and expected to take any abuse/tears/tantrums/complaints etc that arise as a result of this.

334bu · 10/11/2021 19:53

Because what adult needs to pick up a binder from Lush? They would get the binder sent to their house. I would argue that this campaign is not aimed at people who would just get the binder delivered by mail to their door.

Exactly, this is obviously aimed at minors.

foxgoosefinch · 10/11/2021 19:57

They aren’t. I’ve looked at the post and they are providing a place where people can pick up a binder. They aren’t providing the advice gender swap (?) are. If you found a binder in oxfam would you attack oxfam?

But as Helleofabore just posted, it's clearly not aimed at over-18 people who can just order and pay for a binder and have it delivered to their house/hall of residence/flat etc., is it?

The whole idea is that it's aimed at girls who live with their parents and don't have credit or debit cards - hence the collection point and scanning a QR code as a "charity donation".

There is whole culture online of often very young girls trying to find addresses and collection points to have binders delivered to other addresses so their parents don't find out. It's a "thing", as they say.

So Lush are knowingly colluding with all of this.

Clymene · 10/11/2021 19:58

They are providing a space for children to get binders without their parents' knowledge or approval @Testingprof

And yes I'd judge Oxfam for selling them. Do they sell FGM tools?

Girls cannot consent to having their ears pierced without parental consent and yet this shop is selling them medical equipment that will damage their organs.

SunnyDay23 · 10/11/2021 20:12

My boobs grew when I was about thirteen and I was horrified by them, just really self-conscious. It took a couple of years to get comfortable in my new body. I am so glad that binders weren’t available then.

verymiddleaged · 10/11/2021 20:26

A: we don't get paid minimum wage.
This is totally irrelevant to a discussion about child protection.

B: we have a shed ton of training on all our products (not saying that would make any of us qualified to deal with issues surrounding this of course)

As you say you have had no relevant training in relation to children suffering from gender dysmorphia.
Have you had training in age ID, to ensure these products aren't being sold to underage children?
C: we're not asked to aggressively sell and pester customers.
Again this has nothing to do with child protection unless you are thinking of selling binders directly.

D: Our Christmas sales are as good as ever.
We are actually talking about serious issues on this thread.
E: I can practically hear the sneer in the soap shop comments,
It isn't sneering it is just reality. My dc love lush and it does a good job of selling bath products.
It shouldn't be anywhere near potentially harmful body modification products for children.

I'm not blaming shop floor staff but some management figures should take responsibility for this mess.

verymiddleaged · 10/11/2021 20:29

If Oxfam sold them I would be even more unimpressed because they work in a field which should have higher awareness of such issues.

PumpkinGin · 10/11/2021 20:47

@Goshitstricky thank you so much for commenting. I would be very interested in what your manager is saying. Please report back to us.

I really hope that you don’t feel attacked. I don’t think anyone has said anything negative about staff (but I confess to not having read all the posts). I know that you all are experts at your products. That was the main reason for me allowing my daughter to regularly browse your stores. She loves especially your bath bombs but also the soaps and your other products.

My concern is that you seem to provide a pick-up point for binders where underage girls can have them delivered behind their parents back. From the links I have read here, it seems that 97% of wearers experience health issues, some serious and irreversible.

I have stated before that if my daughter came out as trans and wanted to bind, I would want her to see a psychologist and a physical expert to understand better both the psychological reasons and the medical issues with this decision. I don’t expect the same person to be able to give this advice.

I also don’t expect an expert in skincare to be able to evaluate neither a (not even) teenaged girl’s mental health and competency nor the medical side effects, impact on breathing, ribs and breast tissue. Would you consider yourself qualified to do this?

I worry that this is a misguided attempt to signal “trans friendly” with no benefits for adults (who can order their own binders) but potential dangers for underaged girls. I am sorry, but unless this is clarified, I will have to find a new place to shop for my DD.

Skatastic · 10/11/2021 20:52

This is literally my worst nightmare come true. My kid is trans and has caused an unbelievable amount of arguments about wanting a binder, and he would seize on this given half the chance.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/11/2021 20:56

They aren’t. I’ve looked at the post and they are providing a place where people can pick up a binder. They aren’t providing the advice gender swap (?) are. If you found a binder in oxfam would you attack oxfam?

As I used to work in an Oxfam, sorting and pricing donations, I would be very unimpressed if such an item got put on the shop floor.

Charity shops have to comply with legislation. We could not sell electrical items without having it safety tested. We could not sell secondhand soft toys that didn't have labels confirming that they comply with EU health and safety legislation. We couldn't sell secondhand water floatation devices like children's armbands in case there was damage, because we could be responsible for a child drowning.

Selling secondhand binders never came up while I was there, but I think the answer should be a big nope!

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/11/2021 22:10

I've seen a lot of references in this thread to nipple damage, and I think I now know what's being referred to.

Wouldn't you know, it involves the exact brand of binder that female teens will be able to obtain from this branch of Lush.

AIBU to think a soap shop shouldn't be encouraging young girls to self harm?
foxgoosefinch · 10/11/2021 22:13

Oh my god purgatory I feel nauseous and need a lie down after reading that! Shock

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/11/2021 22:21

Yeah. Me too.

For those using a screen-reader, here's the text.

I think I broke my nipple
That's the only way I can think to explain it.

I've been using chest binders since 2018, some safe and some not. My current binder is from gc2b, and it's getting worn out and less effective. As a result, I've had to shove and squish my chest tissue more and more every day just to make it so my binder can actually work. I often end up with crushed nipples, but usually it's better when I take it off at the end of the day. Last night I was sitting at my computer, and for whatever reason I touched my right nipple. It felt... loose? It's still attached to my body and I still have sensation in it, but when I pinch it, it feels like the top part of the nipple isn't connected to the rest of the breast. There's no pain, it just feels loose and, for lack of any better term, flaccid.

A million apologies if this isn't the right place to post this. I chose this sub because I'm positive it has something to do with binding and the fact that I was manhandling things. I just want to know if this is something serious that I should get looked at, I don't really want my nipple to fall off.

(edit: formatting)

Pawprintpaper · 10/11/2021 22:24

@autisticMNer

My daughters have autism. In the increase of over 5000% of girls being referred to Tavistock, 35% are already diagnosed with autism. Compared to less than 1% of the general population with autism. Girls Will autism are just as disproportionately represented in the thousands of detransers out there

NC but regular poster, and apologies for a far too long post.

I have autism and I think if I was a teenager/child today I would be described as having dysmorphia and would be put on the transition pathway, very likely given puberty blockers. I really struggled with puberty and body changes and I still don't feel comfortable about my breasts even in middle age. Menopause was an incredible relief. Even after years of counselling and soul-searching, I'd have a mastectomy if it was safe and easy, and I think if I was younger I'd identify as nonbinary.

I don't see myself as trans or nonbinary for two reasons. Firstly I can see how autism has affected the way I see my body and made puberty and periods particularly hard to deal with, mainly because I find change and sensory issues difficult. Secondly I was lucky enough to grow up in the era of second wave feminism and have seen the personal as political for as long as I can remember, and I've always had an awareness that my issues with the physicality of womanhood are connected to the wider difficulty of being a woman in a patriarchal, sexist society. My discomfort is part of a much wider issue of women changing themselves to fit in with social expectations and pressures, whether that's to be more feminine (breast implants, hair removal) or, in the case of binding, to try and opt out of those expectations.

Only someone with no political awarenes could see breast binding as all about personal choice and feelings, when it's absolutely plain that there are larger issues at play. You just have to look at two points that have been raised here again and again: that far more girls than boys are identifying out of their biological sex, and secondly the expectations of being trans are clearly different for MTF than FTM so that a pp can say that 'transmen do not want breasts' when it would be transphobic to say something like 'transwomen don't want to have beards.'

So, that's a longwinded way to say that this is very much an issue that everyone in society is entitled to discuss and feel concern about, particularly those who are involved in safeguarding children, including all parents. It is not just a personal issue for the individuals concerned.

The other huge issue here is mental health support and the glaring inappropriateness of a service for teens with major MH issues being offered in a shop by people with absolutely no MH training or safeguarding awareness. To me Lush is a particularly awful choice because I've had the experience in more than one branch of them deliberately taking my young daughter aside from me and putting products in her basket without my consent, and this has happened to so many people I know that I believe they must train staff to do this.

Finally, I feel very strongly that whatever reasons are behind issues like binding and identifying out of womanhood, the common help would be putting a lot more resources into good quality mental health care for children and young people, not the shamefully underfunded services we have now. This would help girls who just need a lot of support to get through adolescence, but would also help those who do end up transitioning. If Lush cares about the girls it profits from, a better way to demonstrate that would be to donate some of their profits to young people's mental health services or good quality research into understanding dysmorphia.

Brilliant, thoughtful post. Thank you
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