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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think a soap shop shouldn't be encouraging young girls to self harm?

544 replies

Elleexxtra · 09/11/2021 12:23

Lush Paddington are giving out binders, meaning girls can self harm without any danger of their parents knowing and being able to discuss potential issues with them.

www.instagram.com/lushpaddington/

AIBU to think young girls shouldn't be groomed to hate their bodies?

OP posts:
MonsignorMirth · 10/11/2021 11:03

they do it because they feel like they ARE MEN. Not even sure why I need to explain that.

But kurt - you don't know what a man is. You can't answer. You've been asked repeatedly. All I can assume is that you think it's something to do with a physical type of body, as you bang on about breasts so much.

You can't even see the phobia in your own posts. Is any of this getting through?

ErrolTheDragon · 10/11/2021 11:06

You do realise that a trans man will be having a double mastectomy when they're on the transition path? Their breasts are a hinderance, nothing more.

We're talking about teenage (sometimes younger) females. There are many women on this board who would have considered binding, declaring themselves as nonbinary or trans boys if they'd been unlucky enough to have been a girl now. Many of these are now, happily women and often mothers for whom their breasts are not a 'hinderance', but of great value to themselves and their babies.

And even with transmen and female nonbinary people, some choose to bear and may very much wish to feed their child. The pushing of ridiculous term 'chestfeeding' proves this. (Its ridiculous because 'breast' isn't a sexed term, men can have breast cancer which isn't the same thing as chest cancer).

ErrolTheDragon · 10/11/2021 11:11

Just as their penis is an unwanted appendage to a trans woman.

Odd then how the majority keep it, and quite a few seem very happy to have it, promoting the notion of 'lady dick'.Hmm
You seem to be referring only to people with genuine deep dysphoria. The 'trans umbrella' is now much wider than that.

TheKeatingFive · 10/11/2021 11:13

The idea that every teenage girl, struggling with the change in their body/breasts and wondering if binding would help them, is actually trans and will ultimately transition is incredibly naive.

BloodinGutters · 10/11/2021 11:14

@KurtWilde

Items to support them in presenting as male gender are haircuts and chaps’ pants, minimising sports bras and baggy T-shirt’s. Not binders which destroy breast tissue and inhibit breathing, offered via a trendy soap shop.

Good lord. You do realise that a trans man will be having a double mastectomy when they're on the transition path? Their breasts are a hinderance, nothing more.

My very close colleague is a trans man. He started binding properly at 18 but had done so unsuccessfully before that. Despite seeing the GP and asking for referral to the gender clinic he waited another 2 years before that happened. He then had to prove to the GIC that he'd been living full time as a man for a further 2 years before they'd consider him for hormone treatment and the start of the surgery pathway that can take years to complete. I remember his euphoria at finally not having to bind anymore because his double mastectomy had been booked, and the resulting holiday snaps of him shirtless by the pool in Spain just BEAMING.

Just as their penis is an unwanted appendage to a trans woman. The lengths they go to to hide the male genitalia (usually in the form of pushing the testicles back inside the body and using extra tight support underwear to properly tuck the penis) also causes tissue damage. restriction and shrinkage.

Which is why I'm forced to shake my head in disbelief when women have this idea that a trans woman in the women's changing rooms must be flashing a penis in their faces. After it's taken them so long in the morning to properly organise post-op genitalia in order to pass, the last thing they want to do is undo that work while trying on a pair of jeans. Then there's the months and months of laser facial hair removal, the months of voice training, not to mention the anguish of knowing how long the waiting list is for surgery and all the dangers that come with it.

I have a family member who is a trans woman. If she took a dress into Primark changing rooms to try on, you'd pass her by without even a second glance. She's absolutely no risk to you whatsoever and neither are the majority of trans people. She would, however, be at risk in the male changing rooms. Would you all be ok with that? Because shame on you if so.

Binding isn't primarily aimed at young girls wanting to 'hide' their burgeoning breasts to stop being sexually objectified by men. I'm not saying that doesn't happen with some small percentage of girls, but if it does I would question the parenting. A parent who only shares horror stories of men, and constantly talks about them as if they're all monsters out to rape and abuse, produces girls who are afraid to be girls. You reap what you sow.

Trans men are not girls who are afraid to be girls, they do not identify as male to stop them being objectified by men, they do it because they feel like they ARE MEN. Not even sure why I need to explain that.

I remember when I worked in a hostel, a 19yo trans man ended up with us because his dad had found his bindings, and a small bag of male toiletries. He'd held him down and shaved his head, saying 'you want to be a man eh? This is what men look like..' and then thrown him out. This was once the 'daughter' he doted on, but out of fear of how people would react, out of his own ignorance, he was happy to throw his own child out of their home.

And as for labelling binding as self harm, stop. That's insensitive and almost dismissive of ACTUAL self harm. Many trans people actually DO self harm, because of the bigotry they face even from their own families. But do not confuse the two.

And for fucks sake EDUCATE yourself. Thank god I actually raised my DC as inclusive, understanding human beings who have properly informed opinions rather than basing them on ignorant and often unfounded fears.

The stats there are show most tw retain their penis.

And many many tm detransition. But only after devastating physical and psychological damage has been done.

Like the links posted here show wearing binders actually damages the skin and surrounding tissues so a double mastectomy may not be possible anyways. The same way puberty blockers and cross sex hormones in young transgirls can make surgery to have a neo vagina constructed impossible.

Like you say, EDUCATE YOURSELF.

Helleofabore · 10/11/2021 11:17

Still waiting for educational links thanks Kurt.

You keep telling us to educate ourselves.

And then you give us anecdotes. But I am sorry to say, your anecdotes don't answer my question. And even you have admitted the transman you know transitioned at 18.

Please link up the evidence in peer reviewed studies that back your call for educating ourselves.

Specifically about this cohort of young female transitioners.

waterlego · 10/11/2021 11:21

Binding isn't primarily aimed at young girls wanting to 'hide' their burgeoning breasts to stop being sexually objectified by men. I'm not saying that doesn't happen with some small percentage of girls, but if it does I would question the parenting. A parent who only shares horror stories of men, and constantly talks about them as if they're all monsters out to rape and abuse, produces girls who are afraid to be girls. You reap what you sow.

Well done for shifting the blame for girls’ and young women’s discomfort onto their parents.

As soon as my DD hit puberty, it took her about 5 minutes to notice she was being sexually objectified by a proportion of men. When she was 11, a male shopkeeper made an obscene gesture at her (the one which commonly denotes cunnilingus). Two quite old men looked her up and down lasciviously and stared at her breasts when she was 12. I know about those two events because I was there. I don’t know how many others there were when I wasn’t around to see them. She noticed all of this herself. It had nothing to do with the environment in which she was raised. She has a loving father, a brother, and two wonderful Grandads. She has not been raised to hate or fear men.

KurtWilde · 10/11/2021 11:22

The fact is many trans people have to take measures into their own hands whilst waiting for professional help and referrals. This includes binding and self medicating with anti androgens and hormone. It’s a sad state of affairs that they have to do this, and that’s what the outrage should be about - that’s soap shop is selling binders because of the woeful lack of actual professional help for trans people.

And that's pretty much the last thing I have to say on this subject. It saddens me that a forum that used to be so supportive has turned into a place of bigotry and contempt for anyone who doesn't fit into your neat little clique.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 10/11/2021 11:24

And for fucks sake EDUCATE yourself. Thank god I actually raised my DC as inclusive, understanding human beings who have properly informed opinions rather than basing them on ignorant and often unfounded fears.

As otrher have said, educate yourself doesn't mean agree with me.

And, much as you might like to think, many of us here also have close friends, colleagues and family members who are trans, non binary etc. We all have opinions.

We all know how much damage binders can do. Not least that overuse of a binder can affect the skin's elasticity, making recovery after a double mastectomy unsatisfactory and damage/deformation to ribs can also affect results, some surgeons may hesitate/refuse to undertake surgery of that damage is too bad.

So maybe, just maybe, you need to educate yourself on the real isues around binding, rather than the emotive ones‽

Helleofabore · 10/11/2021 11:24

* Just as their penis is an unwanted appendage to a trans woman.*

This is a thread about young females using binders.

But you do realise that 90%+ of male transitioners keep their penises. And from the growing porn categories, they seem to very much enjoy them.

We are however talking about children still.

MonsteraDeliciosa · 10/11/2021 11:24

@TheKeatingFive

The idea that every teenage girl, struggling with the change in their body/breasts and wondering if binding would help them, is actually trans and will ultimately transition is incredibly naive.
100 x this ^

My autistic teenage DD has a problem with her breasts. She hates having them; they make her feel "fat" and she has huge problems with being self conscious. She is NOT trans, doesn't wish she were male nor "identify" as such.
She did ask for a binder and we said absolutely not. She would never wear a bra but now has stretchy soft crop tops that help her stay comfy and look a little more streamlined. She hasn't asked again.
I'm so glad "Lush" didn't get their grubby hands on her.

Whatwouldscullydo · 10/11/2021 11:26

You think lush is being supportive?

They get to make money, put all the responsibility onto their minimum wage front line staff, knowing that their customers s are actually grateful that they are being exploited and harmed.

And those who think that this shkuid be regulated and people should actually be informed about what they are doing are the bad guys?

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 10/11/2021 11:27

@KurtWilde

The fact is many trans people have to take measures into their own hands whilst waiting for professional help and referrals. This includes binding and self medicating with anti androgens and hormone. It’s a sad state of affairs that they have to do this, and that’s what the outrage should be about - that’s soap shop is selling binders because of the woeful lack of actual professional help for trans people.

And that's pretty much the last thing I have to say on this subject. It saddens me that a forum that used to be so supportive has turned into a place of bigotry and contempt for anyone who doesn't fit into your neat little clique.

Have you not been here al that long?

Few here would disagree that the NHS pathways, for this and many other conditions, are woefully slow.

But that doesn't justify use of binders, drugs etc outside medical control. They can be dangerous, irreversably so.

Your last word seems to mean that you are happy with that.

Now that is sad!

Elleexxtra · 10/11/2021 11:28

@KurtWilde

The fact is many trans people have to take measures into their own hands whilst waiting for professional help and referrals. This includes binding and self medicating with anti androgens and hormone. It’s a sad state of affairs that they have to do this, and that’s what the outrage should be about - that’s soap shop is selling binders because of the woeful lack of actual professional help for trans people.

And that's pretty much the last thing I have to say on this subject. It saddens me that a forum that used to be so supportive has turned into a place of bigotry and contempt for anyone who doesn't fit into your neat little clique.

Again, @KurtWilde, yet again, I am saying we are not talking about trans boys/men here

We are talking about pre/teenage girls/young women

It's cynical band wagon jumping to push soap.

It's insulting to trans boys/men who are being used as a fashion accessory and it's harmful for non-trans females.

Please think about that, it's not coming from a place of hate it's coming from honest, real concern.

OP posts:
PumpkinGin · 10/11/2021 11:34

@KurtWilde

I assume that the last post was for me? So, some children don’t get the support they need and therefore soap shops should hand out binders to all 12 year olds behind the backs of their parents? Wow, just wow.

Look, I am very sorry for what any trans person is going through. It is lovely that you support them and my heart breaks for that poor child who had their head shaved. But I am not talking about that.

Please, all this about transwomen and their penises (or no penises) have nothing to do with this. Adult transmen have nothing to do with this. I wish them all the best. Why do you keep shouting about this the whole time?

I am just concerned about something which seems like 97% of wearers have serious side effects from, being handed out by uneducated staff in soap shops to 12-year old girls. Behind their parents back. Can we discuss that - or have you just said it is all good? This is a good thing??

As for the general trans issues (penis or no penis), I do believe there is a special board. And women who want to discuss this.

Elleexxtra · 10/11/2021 11:35

Oh, and binders are widely available so there is no shortage it waiting list for those is there?

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 10/11/2021 11:35

So....

no educational links from someone who has told us numerous times now to 'educate ourselves'.

No acknowledgement about the characteristics of this current cohort of young female transitioners.

Just a call to be 'kind' and that because children will 'take measures into their own hands whilst waiting for professional help and referrals', you are telling us, as parents, that society should make access to harmful products easier?

Have you actually read any of the posts that you don't agree with?

Your replies come across as 'nah nah nah fingers in my ears, you are all haters and you just don't understand - go educate yourself.'

May as well be REPENT MOTHERFUCKERS! REPENT MOTHERFUCKERS! REPENT MOTHERFUCKERS! REPENT MOTHERFUCKERS! REPENT MOTHERFUCKERS!

Have you actually answered any of the challenging questions asked of you? So that we might educate ourselves?

No. If you have kids, I am sure that you know that simply repeating something does not make it true.

We are here. Link us up with the documented studies that relate to this specific cohort of young females that shows that affirming only treatment, which includes the use of binders, is the most beneficial for all these young females.

Then please do tell us, exactly what you told your children who are very 'inclusive', how some girls who will desist but with sustained damage to their breasts, chest and fitness, were acceptable collateral for the sake of others.

And I look forward to seeing the statistics that parents to can to assess whether or not their daughter will be the one who persists forever with no regrets.

If you cannot link evidence, just say so and stop telling people who might be quite well up to date with this issue to educate themselves.

TheKeatingFive · 10/11/2021 11:36

Oh, and binders are widely available so there is no shortage it waiting list for those is there?

Exactly. In what sense is it 'help'?

Rather than woke virtue signalling?

Helleofabore · 10/11/2021 11:43

And that's pretty much the last thing I have to say on this subject. It saddens me that a forum that used to be so supportive has turned into a place of bigotry and contempt for anyone who doesn't fit into your neat little clique.

Really?

You really are not listening to anyone but yourself.

It is bigotry and contemptuous to do out best that young females do NOT do irreversible damage to themselves during a period in their lives where they are exploring who they are and their boundaries?

Stop downplaying the effects of wearing a binder. Stop telling parents who seem to have a great deal more awareness of the current situation from a young female's perspective than you have.

It is not a competition as to how many trans people anyone knows. And who are YOU to be the spokesperson for ALL trans people. In fact, there is quite a group of trans people who disagree with YOU. Do you ever listen to them? Listen to their stories?

Thank you. I will continue to educate myself. I will continue to listen to a wide range of people, BUT will look to peer reviewed research as a basis.

Have you actually done the same?

dexterslockedintheshedagain · 10/11/2021 11:47

@Welcometothejingles

Very interesting. Thank you.
Helleofabore · 10/11/2021 11:51

You do realise that a trans man will be having a double mastectomy when they're on the transition path? Their breasts are a hinderance, nothing more.

And again.... we are talking about young females under 18. Whatever their gender.

How many of those currently declaring a trans identity will transition?
How many of those who do not transition will have sustained damage to their breasts and chests and reduced fitness?

Because I can assure you, there is a huge number of these young females who will NOT transition.

It could be said that you, by your repeated denial to address the questions put to you, are designating those who do not transition but who damaged their breasts etc, in the expectation that they would transitions as collateral damage.

Are you and all the posters denying the damage and the harm associated with binders comfortable with that?

And if it was YOUR daughter at 11/12/13/14/15/16? You would be happy looking in their eyes and telling them that they were told about the damage potential and that they have these issues is THEIR fault.

Ozanj · 10/11/2021 11:53

This will probably get stopped soon as peddlers take up the bindings and start selling them online.

PumpkinGin · 10/11/2021 11:57

@Ozanj I believe they already are selling them online. The thing lush offers is a place for young girls to pick them up so that parents don’t find them in the mail.

BloodinGutters · 10/11/2021 11:58

@KurtWilde

The fact is many trans people have to take measures into their own hands whilst waiting for professional help and referrals. This includes binding and self medicating with anti androgens and hormone. It’s a sad state of affairs that they have to do this, and that’s what the outrage should be about - that’s soap shop is selling binders because of the woeful lack of actual professional help for trans people.

And that's pretty much the last thing I have to say on this subject. It saddens me that a forum that used to be so supportive has turned into a place of bigotry and contempt for anyone who doesn't fit into your neat little clique.

So you’re ignoring all the reasonable questions we’ve asked you.

That says everything.

autisticMNer · 10/11/2021 12:01

@KurtWilde I've said in a previous post that I have experienced dysmorphia. I felt desperate during puberty and still don't feel comfortable about having breasts in middle age. I feel pretty sure I'd have been put on a trans pathway if I was a teenager now. I can understand the attraction of binding because I'd like to have no breasts. BUT I'm not trans, I'm glad I was never in a position of making decisions where I couldn't have understood the risks or the long term implications.

So it's wrong to suggest that this is an issue only affecting a small number of people who are genuinely trans (by which I mean people with a permanent feeling of gender dysphoria), and not also girls struggling with becoming women in a misogynist culture, or girls with other MH struggles or conditions (including autism) who might be led to see this as some kind of solution.

And I don't think you are addressing the specific issue of this being a soap shop with staff unqualified in supporting and safeguarding young people. Even if I thought breast binding was a positive thing for trans girls, I would want them to be provided by specialist mental health professionals, not by pushy sales assistants with no training.

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