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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think a soap shop shouldn't be encouraging young girls to self harm?

544 replies

Elleexxtra · 09/11/2021 12:23

Lush Paddington are giving out binders, meaning girls can self harm without any danger of their parents knowing and being able to discuss potential issues with them.

www.instagram.com/lushpaddington/

AIBU to think young girls shouldn't be groomed to hate their bodies?

OP posts:
Elleexxtra · 10/11/2021 10:00

To be fair to posters objecting to the term self harm I think they have a point.

The term is traditionally associated with a very deliberate act, the effects of which are well known to the person doing it. It has very emotive connotations.

Binding is marketed as something else, something positive, and even though I consider it harmful and the harm is being done to the self I don't think the motivation is the same.

Maybe it should be AIBU to think a soap shop shouldn't be encouraging young girls to use harmful binders?

OP posts:
MonsignorMirth · 10/11/2021 10:02

[quote Beamur]Page 9. Charleyparleys post spells out the evidence of harm. If you only read one post, read this one.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4396710-Lush-Binder-Collection?pg=9[/quote]
Page numbers and links to page numbers don't always work because there are different ways that users can set up their page settings (I recommend 100 posts per page!)

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 10/11/2021 10:04

I am not sure I'd buy into that Elle it is what it is. Giving it a different name, separating it off from an other act designed to harm the body isn't helpful. That it happens over a longer period of time doesn't change that. And marketing has nothing to do with medical reality.

Whatwouldscullydo · 10/11/2021 10:06

Binding is marketed as something else, something positive, and even though I consider it harmful and the harm is being done to the self I don't think the motivation is the same

Its never just a binder though is it. How many risky behaviours can a person display before we move from viewing it as something being done to cause yourself harm?

Whats the magic number here? Binder = not deliberately causing harm. How about Binder +not telling people you are female?

Or binder+ sex info withholding +entering into spaces meant for males increasing your risk factors of being hurt/assaulted?

Binder +lying about sex+ male spaces + not spending time outside with your friends in the sunshine exercising

Etc

Wheres the point it crosses over ?

KurtWilde · 10/11/2021 10:12

Why do you not believe trans people should be able to access professional assistance?

I do. And very trans person I know has thankfully now been put on the correct path for transitioning. But do you have any idea how many years people wait for that professional assistance? Why do you think they take things into their own hands? Because the waiting list for the GIC is so long, that's why.

KurtWilde · 10/11/2021 10:12

*every not very

Helleofabore · 10/11/2021 10:13

But do you have any idea how many years people wait for that professional assistance?

Yes. Because we are up to date.

Still looking forward for those links to evidence to educate us all though.

Elleexxtra · 10/11/2021 10:14

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

I am not sure I'd buy into that Elle it is what it is. Giving it a different name, separating it off from an other act designed to harm the body isn't helpful. That it happens over a longer period of time doesn't change that. And marketing has nothing to do with medical reality.
Sure, I agree that it is harmful

I'm just sympathetic to the pp who pointed out that self harm is quite specifically used to describe certain behaviours.

I think it actually highlights the problem.. people who self harm generally do it in secret, knowing they are harming themselves but feeling a need to do it anyway.

Wearing a binder is seen as a "good thing" by young girls desperate to fit in to friendship groups so the true harm is masked by all the glitter and rainbows.

That's the problem, it's not about distressed young people knowingly harming themselves in secret to relieve mental pain, it's cynical marketing to young girls (and for those who actually are gender dysphoric, surely it is irresponsible to blithely hand out harmful equipment with no proper support).

And I agree with a pp horrified at the idea that non-dysphoric girls must be collateral damage.

None of this is acceptable for any of our young people who deserve so much more care, all of them.

OP posts:
MrsWooster · 10/11/2021 10:14

@Stompythedinosaur

Come on, claiming a 12 page thread about how trans teens shouldn't be allowed free access to commonly used items to support them in presenting as the gender they identify with isn't anti-trans is about as disingenuous as suggesting your concern about this issue is about self-harm.
Items to support them in presenting as male gender are haircuts and chaps’ pants, minimising sports bras and baggy T-shirt’s. Not binders which destroy breast tissue and inhibit breathing, offered via a trendy soap shop.
Whatwouldscullydo · 10/11/2021 10:16

People take controlling their pain into their own hands should we make heroin legal?

Just because a service is deficient , not helped by blocking progress every step of the way by people who claim to be on the side of trans people creating nore patients than the service can keep up with, doesn't mean that the solution is to turn a blind eye to dangerous stupidity. Wheres the recourse? How much money out of Alice the Saturday girl student do you think you will get when you end up disabled and unable to work? Do you think there's any insurance in leave to cover the costs of their damage ?

MonsignorMirth · 10/11/2021 10:19

@KurtWilde ? Kurt!
I'm starting to think you're deliberately ignoring my posts. Is it because you can't answer the one question I have asked or because you're prejudiced against agender people?

Elleexxtra · 10/11/2021 10:19

Just to reiterate as this thread has taken a predictable turn...

This isn't about denying anything to trans people. Binders are cheaply available for any that want them, we know this. The internet exists.

It's about concern that young girls are being encouraged to try harmful practices by a soap shop.

OP posts:
Whatwouldscullydo · 10/11/2021 10:22

Amd I'm.sorry but some of these activist people and organisations need to take some responsibility here.

Lying about suicide stats

Lying about effects of medication

Confusing children avout their sex and eroding boundaries.

Government funded ti the tuned of hundreds of thousands of pounds and wheres the money going?

Paying staff to harass peope on twitter and calling the police every 5 mins iver biological fact tweets and trolling MN having a go at women who disagree.

None of its getting invested in health care is it. That's where their priorities lie..point proving and bullying.

Not trans people.

PumpkinGin · 10/11/2021 10:24

Elle, I completely agree. Can all the trans discussions please pop over to the special board?

@KurtWilde and @Stompythedinosaur , I wrote a long post about how I was concerned about the ability of children to make this decision and how I thought that professional support was essential.

I also outlined that I thought parental involvement was key.

Would you mind reading that post and let me know why you think a soap shop should distribute something which apparently can be harmful? To young girls? Behind their parents backs?

Helleofabore · 10/11/2021 10:39

I am going to wait, though, to be educated as to why any adults think it is acceptable for a store popular with girls under 16 to be involved in being a collection point for a hinder that is known to be harmful.

And educated why a particular group of girls are considered acceptable collateral damage for the sake of others.

FortunesFavour · 10/11/2021 10:40

Whatwouldscullydo - you are so right. I believe these organisations will get their comeuppance though: it’ll be the scandal of the next decade as the law suits multiply holding them to account for riding roughshod over the law. Might be a bit expensive on the gardening front but I’m up for it!

BloodinGutters · 10/11/2021 10:44

@Elleexxtra

To be fair to posters objecting to the term self harm I think they have a point.

The term is traditionally associated with a very deliberate act, the effects of which are well known to the person doing it. It has very emotive connotations.

Binding is marketed as something else, something positive, and even though I consider it harmful and the harm is being done to the self I don't think the motivation is the same.

Maybe it should be AIBU to think a soap shop shouldn't be encouraging young girls to use harmful binders?

Severally restrictive diets, like water fasts and juice fasts and 500 calories a day, are marketed all over social media as self care.

But they are self harm.

We need to use factual language to name a problem to be able to address it.

Binders sound cutesy in the same way self care cleanses appeal vulnerable young people.

We need to call it what it is.

BloodinGutters · 10/11/2021 10:46

@KurtWilde

Why do you not believe trans people should be able to access professional assistance?

I do. And very trans person I know has thankfully now been put on the correct path for transitioning. But do you have any idea how many years people wait for that professional assistance? Why do you think they take things into their own hands? Because the waiting list for the GIC is so long, that's why.

You didn’t answer my post about this.

Waiting times for diagnosis of adhd are years and years.

Cocaine is chemically pretty similar to ritilin, just stronger. So while waiting it would be fine to self medicate with it? Or medicate children with it??

Whatwouldscullydo · 10/11/2021 10:50

I've worked in jobs with a high level.of social responsibility. As do many others.

Anyone who has sold age restricted products will know that companies take that stuff extremely seriously. Not only do police send in underagers to test the waters ,companies internally also do. You canose your job for serving alcohol to a 20 yr old. Because although they are old enough you still failed because they are under 21/25 or whatever the companies cut off is.

There are huge fines both to individual staff and the companies for breaches of proof of age policies and breaches of the regs around children/infants on the premises.

There are limits in chemist's etc for the amount if paracetamol you can buy.

How on one hand Do we have so many restrictions and guidelines and yet this is allowed. Wheres the responsibility here? Who's taking the hit on the outcomes? I worry for the girls obviously but also the staff back up. They have been placed on this position against their will.

Anyone who has worked in retail knows it doesn't matter of they were served by a manager in a shop in Manchester they will still come raging and screwing at a cashier in the local outlet in Luton.

Will the staff be protected here from the rantings of furious parents who come storming in?

KurtWilde · 10/11/2021 10:55

Items to support them in presenting as male gender are haircuts and chaps’ pants, minimising sports bras and baggy T-shirt’s. Not binders which destroy breast tissue and inhibit breathing, offered via a trendy soap shop.

Good lord. You do realise that a trans man will be having a double mastectomy when they're on the transition path? Their breasts are a hinderance, nothing more.

My very close colleague is a trans man. He started binding properly at 18 but had done so unsuccessfully before that. Despite seeing the GP and asking for referral to the gender clinic he waited another 2 years before that happened. He then had to prove to the GIC that he'd been living full time as a man for a further 2 years before they'd consider him for hormone treatment and the start of the surgery pathway that can take years to complete. I remember his euphoria at finally not having to bind anymore because his double mastectomy had been booked, and the resulting holiday snaps of him shirtless by the pool in Spain just BEAMING.

Just as their penis is an unwanted appendage to a trans woman. The lengths they go to to hide the male genitalia (usually in the form of pushing the testicles back inside the body and using extra tight support underwear to properly tuck the penis) also causes tissue damage. restriction and shrinkage.

Which is why I'm forced to shake my head in disbelief when women have this idea that a trans woman in the women's changing rooms must be flashing a penis in their faces. After it's taken them so long in the morning to properly organise post-op genitalia in order to pass, the last thing they want to do is undo that work while trying on a pair of jeans. Then there's the months and months of laser facial hair removal, the months of voice training, not to mention the anguish of knowing how long the waiting list is for surgery and all the dangers that come with it.

I have a family member who is a trans woman. If she took a dress into Primark changing rooms to try on, you'd pass her by without even a second glance. She's absolutely no risk to you whatsoever and neither are the majority of trans people. She would, however, be at risk in the male changing rooms. Would you all be ok with that? Because shame on you if so.

Binding isn't primarily aimed at young girls wanting to 'hide' their burgeoning breasts to stop being sexually objectified by men. I'm not saying that doesn't happen with some small percentage of girls, but if it does I would question the parenting. A parent who only shares horror stories of men, and constantly talks about them as if they're all monsters out to rape and abuse, produces girls who are afraid to be girls. You reap what you sow.

Trans men are not girls who are afraid to be girls, they do not identify as male to stop them being objectified by men, they do it because they feel like they ARE MEN. Not even sure why I need to explain that.

I remember when I worked in a hostel, a 19yo trans man ended up with us because his dad had found his bindings, and a small bag of male toiletries. He'd held him down and shaved his head, saying 'you want to be a man eh? This is what men look like..' and then thrown him out. This was once the 'daughter' he doted on, but out of fear of how people would react, out of his own ignorance, he was happy to throw his own child out of their home.

And as for labelling binding as self harm, stop. That's insensitive and almost dismissive of ACTUAL self harm. Many trans people actually DO self harm, because of the bigotry they face even from their own families. But do not confuse the two.

And for fucks sake EDUCATE yourself. Thank god I actually raised my DC as inclusive, understanding human beings who have properly informed opinions rather than basing them on ignorant and often unfounded fears.

FortunesFavour · 10/11/2021 10:57

KurtWilde - you appear to be confusing the term “educate yourself” with the term “agree with me”. Repeatedly.

Elleexxtra · 10/11/2021 10:58

@KurtWilde

Reminder: we are not talking about denying trans people, we are talking about marketing harmful products to young girls who are not trans and will want their breasts once they've gone through puberty.

OP posts:
Whatwouldscullydo · 10/11/2021 10:59

None of that explains why its a good idea that non dbs checked, untrained staff in a soap shop should sell binders to teenage girls Confused

FortunesFavour · 10/11/2021 10:59

I for example am very well educated in the duty of care organisations owe to their employees and the public. It is my professional field. I suggest you might like to educate yourself too.

FortunesFavour · 10/11/2021 11:02

My last post was to @KurtWilde, keen educationalist.