AIBU to think a soap shop shouldn't be encouraging young girls to self harm?

[Elleexxtra]

Lush Paddington are giving out binders, meaning girls can self harm without any danger of their parents knowing and being able to discuss potential issues with them.

www.instagram.com/lushpaddington/

AIBU to think young girls shouldn't be groomed to hate their bodies?

Must be.

I wouldn't have thought the idea that binders should be carefully fitted to the person, and that you should be able to exchange them if they don't fit, would be so controversial.

It's routine for people to talk about taking their daughters to see a trained bra fitter at a department store, isn't it? Why is a binder deserving of less care than one's first bra?

@transman

I see the anti trans brigade is out in force. Mumsnet is full of anti trans posters. What lush are doing is good. It helps people who can't afford binders.

No where does it say anything about targeting young kids.

This is the anti trans brigade, fear mongering as they know what response they will get on mumsnet.

You guys are uneducated on trans issues. Stop having ago at companies who help trans people.

I've asked repeatedly to be educated on the one point I don't understand, and no-one can answer.

A poster upthread said that binders help people pass as men.

What is the definition of man that is being used (that doesn't re-use the word "man" in the definition! ) that has anything to do with breasts?

MonsignorMirth

I too am interested in hearing this.

And why teenaged girls perception of the ‘ideal’ body for them being ‘breastless’ is being supported and not challenged. After all, do we support a teenager with a food control issue by allowing them to continue to have a harmful view of their body? Do we encourage them when they say they are too ‘fat’?

Why does a declaration of ‘trans’ mean it is ok to undertake harmful actions to your body if you are a female? Including damaging breasts and chests and fitness by wearing a binder.

@Whatwouldscullydo

The only "anti trans" stuff on this thread is from those who don't think they deserve to be warned if potentially deforming their body for life in an item of clothing even mermaids advise you not to wear too long and to stay out of the sun in.

What kind of ally is anyone who turns a blind eye to those who have caused themselves irreversible damage.

Do you think trans people don't educate themselves to the possible physical dangers of binders? Or hormone replacement? Or anything else they need to do to pass? You do them a disservice. Educate yourself instead of making ridiculous comments when you clearly don't have a clue. The ignorance on this thread is mind boggling.

My daughters have autism. In the increase of over 5000% of girls being referred to Tavistock, 35% are already diagnosed with autism. Compared to less than 1% of the general population with autism. Girls Will autism are just as disproportionately represented in the thousands of detransers out there

NC but regular poster, and apologies for a far too long post.

I have autism and I think if I was a teenager/child today I would be described as having dysmorphia and would be put on the transition pathway, very likely given puberty blockers. I really struggled with puberty and body changes and I still don't feel comfortable about my breasts even in middle age. Menopause was an incredible relief. Even after years of counselling and soul-searching, I'd have a mastectomy if it was safe and easy, and I think if I was younger I'd identify as nonbinary.

I don't see myself as trans or nonbinary for two reasons. Firstly I can see how autism has affected the way I see my body and made puberty and periods particularly hard to deal with, mainly because I find change and sensory issues difficult. Secondly I was lucky enough to grow up in the era of second wave feminism and have seen the personal as political for as long as I can remember, and I've always had an awareness that my issues with the physicality of womanhood are connected to the wider difficulty of being a woman in a patriarchal, sexist society. My discomfort is part of a much wider issue of women changing themselves to fit in with social expectations and pressures, whether that's to be more feminine (breast implants, hair removal) or, in the case of binding, to try and opt out of those expectations.

Only someone with no political awarenes could see breast binding as all about personal choice and feelings, when it's absolutely plain that there are larger issues at play. You just have to look at two points that have been raised here again and again: that far more girls than boys are identifying out of their biological sex, and secondly the expectations of being trans are clearly different for MTF than FTM so that a pp can say that 'transmen do not want breasts' when it would be transphobic to say something like 'transwomen don't want to have beards.'

So, that's a longwinded way to say that this is very much an issue that everyone in society is entitled to discuss and feel concern about, particularly those who are involved in safeguarding children, including all parents. It is not just a personal issue for the individuals concerned.

The other huge issue here is mental health support and the glaring inappropriateness of a service for teens with major MH issues being offered in a shop by people with absolutely no MH training or safeguarding awareness. To me Lush is a particularly awful choice because I've had the experience in more than one branch of them deliberately taking my young daughter aside from me and putting products in her basket without my consent, and this has happened to so many people I know that I believe they must train staff to do this.

Finally, I feel very strongly that whatever reasons are behind issues like binding and identifying out of womanhood, the common help would be putting a lot more resources into good quality mental health care for children and young people, not the shamefully underfunded services we have now. This would help girls who just need a lot of support to get through adolescence, but would also help those who do end up transitioning. If Lush cares about the girls it profits from, a better way to demonstrate that would be to donate some of their profits to young people's mental health services or good quality research into understanding dysmorphia.

Children shouldn't be damaging their developing bodies @KurtWilde. Adults can do what they like.

Not saying that Lush's hard sell means they'll be pushing binders onto young girls, just that being trained into that very pushy way of selling means their staff are completely unsuited to any involvement in providing such a sensitive and potentially harmful product.

Do you think trans people don't educate themselves to the possible physical dangers of binders?

I can point to at least 3 of my teen’s group who have ALL told each other there is NO dangers to wearing binders.

I know this. I witnessed the discussion.

@autisticMNer

My daughters have autism. In the increase of over 5000% of girls being referred to Tavistock, 35% are already diagnosed with autism. Compared to less than 1% of the general population with autism. Girls Will autism are just as disproportionately represented in the thousands of detransers out there

NC but regular poster, and apologies for a far too long post.

I have autism and I think if I was a teenager/child today I would be described as having dysmorphia and would be put on the transition pathway, very likely given puberty blockers. I really struggled with puberty and body changes and I still don't feel comfortable about my breasts even in middle age. Menopause was an incredible relief. Even after years of counselling and soul-searching, I'd have a mastectomy if it was safe and easy, and I think if I was younger I'd identify as nonbinary.

I don't see myself as trans or nonbinary for two reasons. Firstly I can see how autism has affected the way I see my body and made puberty and periods particularly hard to deal with, mainly because I find change and sensory issues difficult. Secondly I was lucky enough to grow up in the era of second wave feminism and have seen the personal as political for as long as I can remember, and I've always had an awareness that my issues with the physicality of womanhood are connected to the wider difficulty of being a woman in a patriarchal, sexist society. My discomfort is part of a much wider issue of women changing themselves to fit in with social expectations and pressures, whether that's to be more feminine (breast implants, hair removal) or, in the case of binding, to try and opt out of those expectations.

Only someone with no political awarenes could see breast binding as all about personal choice and feelings, when it's absolutely plain that there are larger issues at play. You just have to look at two points that have been raised here again and again: that far more girls than boys are identifying out of their biological sex, and secondly the expectations of being trans are clearly different for MTF than FTM so that a pp can say that 'transmen do not want breasts' when it would be transphobic to say something like 'transwomen don't want to have beards.'

So, that's a longwinded way to say that this is very much an issue that everyone in society is entitled to discuss and feel concern about, particularly those who are involved in safeguarding children, including all parents. It is not just a personal issue for the individuals concerned.

The other huge issue here is mental health support and the glaring inappropriateness of a service for teens with major MH issues being offered in a shop by people with absolutely no MH training or safeguarding awareness. To me Lush is a particularly awful choice because I've had the experience in more than one branch of them deliberately taking my young daughter aside from me and putting products in her basket without my consent, and this has happened to so many people I know that I believe they must train staff to do this.

Finally, I feel very strongly that whatever reasons are behind issues like binding and identifying out of womanhood, the common help would be putting a lot more resources into good quality mental health care for children and young people, not the shamefully underfunded services we have now. This would help girls who just need a lot of support to get through adolescence, but would also help those who do end up transitioning. If Lush cares about the girls it profits from, a better way to demonstrate that would be to donate some of their profits to young people's mental health services or good quality research into understanding dysmorphia.

Very well put

Educate yourself instead of making ridiculous comments when you clearly don't have a clue. The ignorance on this thread is mind boggling.

There it is again.

The demand to ‘educate’ ourselves.

Many of us posting on this thread HAVE educated ourselves. And we don’t agree with you.

I will look forward though to the evidence that you will provide us.

Or is it just emotional manipulation and emotive reasoning.

And I don’t mean the studies that say that wearing binders may alleviate gender dysphoria. I mean the studies that show that the majority of the young female cohort that identifies as trans has gender dysphoria to start with. And that the best treatment for ALL the young females is affirming only including wearing binders, including puberty blockers and cross sex hormones.

And just how many of these young females who are non-binary have gender dysphoria? Why does their treatment also include binding?

And by the way, we know from detransitioners that there is a % of people identifying as trans who do NOT know all the negative effects and that even their medical team have not discussed those negative effects with them thoroughly.

I know I am not alone in looking forward to the links to evidence for this ‘education’.

@Whitefire

I can only think that some of the posters that think this is a wonderful thing, don't want to allow themselves to question any part of it that will then make them be in agreement with the evil T*RFS. So it's all or nothing, even just acknowledging that Lush is perhaps not the best place for young teens to get hold of them is not allowed.

All or nothing (see Margaret Atwood)

I agree this level of dogmatism is very disturbing. Even with religions there's normally tolerance of some debate and variation in how ideology is interpreted.

@KurtWilde I don’t understand all this “educate yourself”. I accept and respect transpeople and I think any adults are free to take whatever decisions they like with regards to their bodies.

What I am talking about here are very young girls. Who love lush and suddenly see this there.

You say that transpeople can educate themselves and take this decisions? I can tell you that my children are not mentally ready to understand long term consequences (oldest is barely a teen) or make a thorough analysis.

My oldest came home the other day and said she would stop to drink milk because her friends had stopped. We had a long discussion and looked up osteoporosis and calcium needs at her age. I also put together a list of alternatives (broccoli etc) she would need to consume each day to reach her calcium requirements. And offered to get her vitamin supplement but also told here that most studies indicate that it is better to get your daily requirement from food. She decided to continue with milk for now.

If my daughter comes home and wants to bind, we will see a psychologist, some physical specialist etc and work out pros and cons in the same way. At that point, we will read up on it together.

You seem to say that it is transphobic to want to make sure that your children are doing a thorough risk analysis? And that it is ok for a shop to enable 12-year olds to take a decision like this behind their parents back?

I am hoping that I am wrong. I would love to discuss this particular issues (children’s decision making capabilities and parental responsibility).

I am not that interested in discussing general trans issues. I think there is a special board for that?

autisticMNer

Thank you for your articulate post.

The ignorance on this thread is mind boggling.
kurt you have made transphobic comments and when questioned on them refuse to respond. I haven't reported your posts because I want people to see what is considered acceptable by posters like you, but clearly you're determined to continue.

For the third, or is it fourth, time, please explain why you think being a man has anything to do with whether a person has breasts or not? Set out clearly your definition of "man" that you think we are wrong about.

All you do is call names but you can't actually clearly state your position on what a man or woman actually is.
Does that not even give you pause to think for even a second or two?

Do you think trans people don't educate themselves to the possible physical dangers of binders? Or hormone replacement? Or anything else they need to do to pass? You do them a disservice. Educate yourself instead of making ridiculous comments when you clearly don't have a clue. The ignorance on this thread is mind boggling

Do you go to your window cleaner fir dental work?

Take your sick cat to the petrol garage ?

Does your hair dresser administer your methadone?

No of course not. Have some bloody standards ffs. Di you think retail staff are qualified, trained, or even insured to do this ?

Why do you not believe trans people should be able to access professional assistance?

This is an issue that I feel really strongly about as my dd want through a stage in her early teens - as her body started to change - of hating her body and talking about using a binder or having her breast removed when she was older. She was very vulnerable, unhappy and confused. This phase passed thankfully - but I hate to think what might have happened if a random shop had become involved in offering her “help”…

@Notcontent

This is an issue that I feel really strongly about as my dd want through a stage in her early teens - as her body started to change - of hating her body and talking about using a binder or having her breast removed when she was older. She was very vulnerable, unhappy and confused. This phase passed thankfully - but I hate to think what might have happened if a random shop had become involved in offering her “help”…

Exactly

Sounds like she was able to talk to you about it which is fantastic.

I'm not reading all of the responses, but DO NOT refer to self harm in this way. It's fucking insensitive. It is personally offensive to me. It's called BINDING. Do not conflate these experiences.

What else would you call something that breaks down body tissues and deforms your ribs ?

That's harm right?

You deliberately wore something to donot to you.

Thats the very definition of self harm

The glitter ajd unicorns don't change that

And nor dies giving everything sone cutsie name to allow People to disassociate from what's actually being done.

Top surgery is a double mastectomy ajd binding is still causing harm to your hreast tissue ajd breaking ribs

Choosing to do something to yourself that is known to be harmful to alleviate mental pain is ‘self harm’.

Binding has been proven to cause damage and health issues.

FFS, a young female had a nipple fall off in their binder and talked about it on social media the other day.

Stop downplaying the risks associated with using binders.

Maybe you should read the responses and see why some people think that it is. It's not just being randomly thrown in without justification.

Not sure why the harm done to themselves by people using binders can't be described as self harm. even the manufacturers of the bloody things outline the potential for damage.

If hiding breasts accepting the likelihood of tissue damage, broken ribs etc isn't self harm then what is it?

That it is a relatively new phenomenon doesn't change what it is.

Page 9. Charleyparleys post spells out the evidence of harm. If you only read one post, read this one.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4396710-Lush-Binder-Collection?pg=9

Not sure why the harm done to themselves by people using binders can't be described as self harm. even the manufacturers of the bloody things outline the potential for damage

Personally I think its like sex. If you cant talk about it openly with the appropriate language you aren't mature enough to be doing it.

Of you refuse to acknowledge the seriousness and are offended by medically accurate language and need things explained to you In sugar coated as like you do with a toddler then you should not be deemed capable of consenting.