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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think a soap shop shouldn't be encouraging young girls to self harm?

544 replies

Elleexxtra · 09/11/2021 12:23

Lush Paddington are giving out binders, meaning girls can self harm without any danger of their parents knowing and being able to discuss potential issues with them.

www.instagram.com/lushpaddington/

AIBU to think young girls shouldn't be groomed to hate their bodies?

OP posts:
BloodinGutters · 10/11/2021 06:24

@Stompythedinosaur

So, if you feel binders are unsafe, don't wear them. No one is going to force you to.

The focus on preventing others from doing so is strange. There are lots of things where there is a potential risk but people often decide the benefit to them outweighs this (for example, using weighted blankets). It is strange how it is only binders that cause people to rant and rave on mn though. Almost as if it isn't really about the risk!

It’s pretty standard for parents to care about harm to children.

I’d be concerned if random shops were selling alcohol to children, or drugs or promoting cutting as cool. Even if the kids had parents who though it was awesome.

BloodinGutters · 10/11/2021 06:25

@transman

I see the anti trans brigade is out in force. Mumsnet is full of anti trans posters. What lush are doing is good. It helps people who can't afford binders.

No where does it say anything about targeting young kids.

This is the anti trans brigade, fear mongering as they know what response they will get on mumsnet.

You guys are uneducated on trans issues. Stop having ago at companies who help trans people.

They are charging people for these. Lush aren’t helping anyone, they are profiting from this.

Their main demographic is children and young women. Nothing to suggest this is different.

BloodinGutters · 10/11/2021 06:33

@Stompythedinosaur

Lush are not medical professionals. Children should not be allowed to break their ribs and damage their lungs without, at least, having medical supervision.

Now where’s all the doctors who endorse the ‘safe’ ways to fit and wear binders?

No one?

Because even medical professionals who might prescribe puberty blockers with all the risks they come with, won’t endorse binders.

PumpkinGin · 10/11/2021 06:43

Ok, say an adult woman wants to bind her breasts. I think this seems harmful based on the links I have read on this thread. But I don’t really understand the motivation, maybe it makes her happier. This isn’t really my problem. You do you.

But my understanding is that lush offers an extra service where anyone including children just starting puberty can order binders and pick them up there. To me, that seems like enabling children to go behind their parents back to do something that will damage their breast tissue.

Why not have the binders delivered to your own home if you are an adult? Why not discuss with your parents and doctor, agree something and have the binders delivered to your own home if you are a child?

I just think this seems like a way for soap shop to access children and provide them with something they shouldn’t.

Helleofabore · 10/11/2021 06:47

So no one came back with the research into just how many of the 5 friends in my teen’s group will persist as transmen for the rest of their life.

Yet, people continue to endorse that each one of those 5 using binders that are known to cause damage to their bodies rather than supporting them to be able to live with their bodies as they are.

So, if only 1 of those five persist to be trans for their entire life, the other four’s breast and chest health are just acceptable collateral? And their physical fitness too, which we are constantly told is useful for improving poor mental health. Is it more than 1? Will it be 2 out of the 5?

I am very happy to read whatever peer reviewed research anyone posts that will help to address this issue of just how many of this group of 5 will persist until reaching adulthood to get mastectomies (as one surgeon points out, so it won’t matter having damaged breasts). And even then, how many who have mastectomies who will persist their entire lives and not detransition.

Because, for all those who have downplayed the risks associated with binding, you are effectively enabling children to do this. This is not a ‘therapy’ that has little risk associated with it. And I have seen the web sites and listened to the peer to peer conversations. The negative health risks are completely down played. Every. Time.

These children are NOT getting full information about this. And now, the internet is so full of reinforcement that binding is apparently low risk, those making these decisions are reassured that only those bigots or uneducated are scaremongering.

And it is made worse because there is a significant issue at the moment with the reasons behind our girls declaring themselves as trans, is unconscionably under researched. With the true numbers unknown. We only see the numbers of referrals and they are lower than the numbers in the population who have no referrals at all. Just social transition.

Let’s not forget that those number are not covering the even larger cohort of non-binary females who are also encouraged to bind.

Ultimately, a large portion of these girls will retain their breasts and will subsequently reach adulthood with damaged bodies. They get to live with the knowledge that their breasts were considered acceptable collateral because the higher health risks for young females were deemed not important enough for GIDS and other organisations to thoroughly research when the trend was identified. Or was actively discouraged because the research was deemed transphobic. It was urgently needed to get a thorough understanding of what was happening psychologically and within society of this group.

And we as parents are being told we are ‘uneducated’. That we are expressing fake concern, or at the very least, ill-directed concern.

Well, while I am waiting for that research to be linked up on this thread, maybe one of the posters telling us that binding is not harmful, will tell us exactly how THEY explained to their 11/12/13/14/15 year old that the likelihood of them doing lasting damage to their bodies by wearing a binder is very high, but some groups in society think that is just acceptable collateral on the chance that they might be one of the small number that persist identifying as trans into adult hood.

And if they desist, well, the lasting legacy of damage to their body is a reminder that it was all their own decision.

Enabled by well meaning people …. and now LUSH.

Feelinglow27 · 10/11/2021 06:49

Fucking hell, how is anybody with any sense ok with this?

I take it foot binding is A-OK too, yes?

Depressing.

Helleofabore · 10/11/2021 06:49

@Stompythedinosaur

I think it is really shitty to muddy up the important issue of self-harm in teens in order to push your own anti-trans beliefs.
It is really shitty to muddy up the important issues of caring for children and teen’s mental health to push your own trans beliefs.
Helleofabore · 10/11/2021 06:58

@Stompythedinosaur

So, if you feel binders are unsafe, don't wear them. No one is going to force you to.

The focus on preventing others from doing so is strange. There are lots of things where there is a potential risk but people often decide the benefit to them outweighs this (for example, using weighted blankets). It is strange how it is only binders that cause people to rant and rave on mn though. Almost as if it isn't really about the risk!

So, if you feel binders are unsafe, don't wear them. No one is going to force you to.

This statement sounds like it has been written by a child.

The focus on preventing others from doing so is strange.

It is called parenting.

There are lots of things where there is a potential risk but people often decide the benefit to them outweighs this (for example, using weighted blankets).

And we are talking about children being handed over binders delivered without parental knowledge or consent.

It is strange how it is only binders that cause people to rant and rave on mn though. Almost as if it isn't really about the risk!

Hmm
Whatwouldscullydo · 10/11/2021 06:59

The only "anti trans" stuff on this thread is from those who don't think they deserve to be warned if potentially deforming their body for life in an item of clothing even mermaids advise you not to wear too long and to stay out of the sun in.

What kind of ally is anyone who turns a blind eye to those who have caused themselves irreversible damage.

Helleofabore · 10/11/2021 07:03

@transman

I see the anti trans brigade is out in force. Mumsnet is full of anti trans posters. What lush are doing is good. It helps people who can't afford binders.

No where does it say anything about targeting young kids.

This is the anti trans brigade, fear mongering as they know what response they will get on mumsnet.

You guys are uneducated on trans issues. Stop having ago at companies who help trans people.

I see the anti trans brigade is out in force. Mumsnet is full of anti trans posters.

Nice of you to sign up just to plop this post onto this thread. So, supporting your child is now ‘anti-trans’. Good to know.

What lush are doing is good. It helps people who can't afford binders.

No it is acting as a collection point for children to pick up their binders.

No where does it say anything about targeting young kids.

Why would any adult have their binders

This is the anti trans brigade, fear mongering as they know what response they will get on mumsnet.

You guys are uneducated on trans issues. Stop having ago at companies who help trans people.

Firesidefox · 10/11/2021 07:04

@Strawberry33

Self harm?
Yes. Chest binding is self harming.
Persephonegoddess · 10/11/2021 07:09

The only way to discourage lush is to communicate what they are doing and then enough people will stop buying to hit their bottoms line. Or ask them under a freedom of information act the qualifications they have trained their staff to safely sell this product..... better can't prove they have!

FOJN · 10/11/2021 07:10

The teens I work with regularly make their own decisions about things like medications, treatments, therapies etc.

Presumably their range of choices is limited to researched and approved treatment options, administered/delivered under the care/supervision of a suitably qualified professional.

Persephonegoddess · 10/11/2021 07:11
  • bet they, when are we getting an edit feature mnhq?
RainbowBriteUk · 10/11/2021 07:16

Is this because girls want to look like the Kardashians with their impossibly tiny waists and big boobs, bums and wide hips? I fucking despair of the world sometimes.

Helleofabore · 10/11/2021 07:17

Sorry.

Pressed post too early.

What lush are doing is good. It helps people who can't afford binders.

There is no age verification for binder purchase. And LUSH is a shopping destination for many teens (who are still children).

This is the anti trans brigade, fear mongering as they know what response they will get on mumsnet.

This is parents responding to a brand getting involved in potentially allowing children to access binders which are harmful. If adults are using the service, good for them.

My concern is for the many teens and children who will now see binders as so harmless that you can even get them from LUSH!

You guys are uneducated on trans issues.

A great many of us are not uneducated about ‘trans issues’ at all. And we are certainly not uneducated about parenting.

Stop having ago at companies who help trans people.

Maybe explain why this campaign by LUSH will have zero negative impact on children? Explain how this initiative has no potential to allow teens to access a binder without knowing the complete likelihood of negative effects, without any downplaying of those negative effects, and without the influence of the current narrative that any discussion of negative effects is just scaremongering.

Evesgarden · 10/11/2021 07:25

You have a teenager with 5 transmen friends?

Wow. Do you not think that is strange in its self? What are the chances in that? That 5 of your teens group have gender dysphoria when in reality the chances of this are 0.002-0.003% for natal females. Is this a friendship group your teenager has grown up with or a friendship group they found on line? In other words an echo chamber of people egging each other on.

Elleexxtra · 10/11/2021 07:25

@Stompythedinosaur

Come on, claiming a 12 page thread about how trans teens shouldn't be allowed free access to commonly used items to support them in presenting as the gender they identify with isn't anti-trans is about as disingenuous as suggesting your concern about this issue is about self-harm.
Again, yet again, I say this is not about trans people treating their dysphoria

It's about cynical marketing to young girls, most of whom are statistically highly unlikely to actually be trans.

And if they are trans then they need proper support not a soap shop gleefully handing out binders with no refunds and tough sholit if you get the wrong size.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 10/11/2021 07:29

@Evesgarden

You have a teenager with 5 transmen friends?

Wow. Do you not think that is strange in its self? What are the chances in that? That 5 of your teens group have gender dysphoria when in reality the chances of this are 0.002-0.003% for natal females. Is this a friendship group your teenager has grown up with or a friendship group they found on line? In other words an echo chamber of people egging each other on.

Sorry, 5 trans. A few of those are transboys.

But most wearing binders. Some for them delivered to friends addresses. Because even non-binary and other genders under the trans umbrella wear binders.

Helleofabore · 10/11/2021 07:32

I also need to correct that the company providing the binders say 16+ but no age verification has been indicated. And no process confirmed by lush that they will verify age.

And there is still the connection now between LUSH, a popular brand for under 16s, and binders. Without any mention of the risks and harms involved.

bordermidgebite · 10/11/2021 07:41

Legal age for tattoos is 18
I think it should be the save for binders

Welcometothejingles · 10/11/2021 07:41

What's Lush saying on twitter & their marketing campaign? Maybe their Christmas rag line is 'stuck on what to buy your teen this Christmas? Buy her a chest binder!' ffs

Clymene · 10/11/2021 07:48

@RainbowBriteUk

Is this because girls want to look like the Kardashians with their impossibly tiny waists and big boobs, bums and wide hips? I fucking despair of the world sometimes.
No, it is because they don't want to look like the kardashians. Binders flatten breasts against the rib cage.

They are girls who don't want to grow into women and suffer all the endless sexual objectification. So they are trying to identify out of it.

PumpkinGin · 10/11/2021 07:58

I think it is scary how some of the posters here wants us to stop talking about damage to young girls because….transpeople….

This is so sinister. I am worried that this will have an impact on my daughter and her friends.

I haven’t said anything about transpeople- apart from stating that adults are free to do what they like.

Are people really sacrificing the health of young girls just because we shouldn’t offend adult transpeople? Who appear to be offended just by talking about young girls?

Whitefire · 10/11/2021 08:01

I can only think that some of the posters that think this is a wonderful thing, don't want to allow themselves to question any part of it that will then make them be in agreement with the evil T*RFS. So it's all or nothing, even just acknowledging that Lush is perhaps not the best place for young teens to get hold of them is not allowed.

All or nothing (see Margaret Atwood)