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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think a soap shop shouldn't be encouraging young girls to self harm?

544 replies

Elleexxtra · 09/11/2021 12:23

Lush Paddington are giving out binders, meaning girls can self harm without any danger of their parents knowing and being able to discuss potential issues with them.

www.instagram.com/lushpaddington/

AIBU to think young girls shouldn't be groomed to hate their bodies?

OP posts:
SouthernFashionista · 09/11/2021 21:54

This is horrendous. I’ll never be spending a penny more with Lush.

SouthernFashionista · 09/11/2021 21:56

This just makes me so sad. The thought of young girls being encouraged to despise, and hide, their developing bodies. I despair.

KurtWilde · 09/11/2021 23:04

@BloodinGutters I'm one of the 'good people of mumsnet' and have been around this forum for donkeys years. I'm a mum and a step mum. What's your point? Do you think I don't worry about my DC the same way everyone else does? I just happen to think that some of you are in the dark about what these binders are intended for. Like they're some huge personal danger to your DC Confused

verymiddleaged · 09/11/2021 23:15

I'm not in the dark about the point of binders, I am very aware of their purpose.
Which is why I think they are a child protection issue not just for my child but any child.
I am educated about them, it is this education that informs my views.

BloodinGutters · 09/11/2021 23:20

[quote KurtWilde]@BloodinGutters I'm one of the 'good people of mumsnet' and have been around this forum for donkeys years. I'm a mum and a step mum. What's your point? Do you think I don't worry about my DC the same way everyone else does? I just happen to think that some of you are in the dark about what these binders are intended for. Like they're some huge personal danger to your DC Confused[/quote]
They are.

Read the studies linked here. 97% report physical harms from wearing them.

My daughters have autism. In the increase of over 5000% of girls being referred to Tavistock, 35% are already diagnosed with autism. Compared to less than 1% of the general population with autism. Girls Will autism are just as disproportionately represented in the thousands of detransers out there.

So yes this personally effects my daughters and lush, who have zero medical training, zero safeguarding and zero ethics (cruelty free kisses, lush naked) supplying very young women with binders is harmful to my girls. It normalises a highly risky choice as if it is non thing more than a bath bomb.

Stompythedinosaur · 09/11/2021 23:20

I think it is really shitty to muddy up the important issue of self-harm in teens in order to push your own anti-trans beliefs.

BloodinGutters · 09/11/2021 23:22

@Stompythedinosaur

I think it is really shitty to muddy up the important issue of self-harm in teens in order to push your own anti-trans beliefs.
I don’t have anti trans beliefs (not sure what they would even be..) and I can’t see any posters here who do have.
Stompythedinosaur · 09/11/2021 23:26

Come on, claiming a 12 page thread about how trans teens shouldn't be allowed free access to commonly used items to support them in presenting as the gender they identify with isn't anti-trans is about as disingenuous as suggesting your concern about this issue is about self-harm.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 09/11/2021 23:31

[quote KurtWilde]@BloodinGutters I'm one of the 'good people of mumsnet' and have been around this forum for donkeys years. I'm a mum and a step mum. What's your point? Do you think I don't worry about my DC the same way everyone else does? I just happen to think that some of you are in the dark about what these binders are intended for. Like they're some huge personal danger to your DC Confused[/quote]
We know what they're for. Compressing breast tissue. It's not a huge mystery. Confused

extract
If you hope to get top surgery (a procedure to reduce or remove breast tissue), binding frequently can affect skin elasticity and impact surgery outcomes (4,5).

(continues)

Risks and side effects of binding

Binding can affect skin, muscles, and movement, particularly over long periods of time. Tightly covering the skin and chest with materials that don’t allow free-flowing air can create warm, moist environments for bacterial and fungal infections to develop. Wearing binders that are too tight can cause underlying tissue and muscle damage, prevent free movement, and even restrict a person’s ability to breathe.

Two studies have been completed that focus specifically on people who bind. They were cross-sectional studies, observing a specific population (people who chest bind) at a specific point in time, and were published in 2017 and 2018. Both of these studies are based on data from 1,800 responders to an online survey.

Across both studies, the majority of people (89-97%) reported experiencing at least one negative symptom from chest binding (2,3).

Common side effects of chest binding

76-78% of people in studies reported skin/tissue problems, like tenderness, scarring, swelling, itching, infections

74-75% of people reported pain in chest, shoulders, back or abdomen

51-52% of people reported respiratory problems (like shortness of breath)

47-49% of people reported musculoskeletal symptoms, like postural changes, muscle wasting, or rib fractures (2,3)

People who bind their chest more frequently (every day) are more likely to experience negative symptoms. For this reason, taking days off between binding may help decrease this risk. Long term binding (over years) was also more likely to be associated with negative symptoms, particularly skin, tissues, and musculoskeletal problems (2). People with larger breasts were more likely to experience skin and soft tissue issues (2).

What people use to bind their chests with is a very personal choice, and finding a standard “best type of binder” for everyone is unclear.One study showed that people who used commercial binders experienced increased risk for the highest number of negative symptoms from binding, followed by those who used bandages, and plastic wrap or duct tape (2).

The high amount of negative effects found from commercial binders in this study were a surprise to the researchers, since blogs and other informal resources dedicated to trans men and healthy binding often recommend commercial binders (2,4). This could be due to people wearing binders that are too small, wearing them for longer periods, or wearing more than one at a time. More research is needed, but if you choose to wear a commercial binder, do your research, read reviews online, and make sure it is the right size for you.

end of extract

Did you notice my post where I noted that customers weren't allowed to ask for a refund or exchange on a binder that didn't fit?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 09/11/2021 23:35

@Stompythedinosaur

Come on, claiming a 12 page thread about how trans teens shouldn't be allowed free access to commonly used items to support them in presenting as the gender they identify with isn't anti-trans is about as disingenuous as suggesting your concern about this issue is about self-harm.
Point.

These items are not free. The teenagers are being charged for them, and in the terms and conditions it says no refunds or exchanges are permitted.

These are worse conditions than I'm expected to abide by when buying bras, and I am very unlikely to crack a rib from a badly fitting bra.

Enough4me · 09/11/2021 23:41

M&S dropped off my places to shop list yesterday and today it's Lush. Their stuff smells so strong I avoid it anyhow, but now if you paid me I won't use their stuff.

UmbilicusProfundus · 09/11/2021 23:42

Do people who are describing this as ‘self-harm’ think the reasons for binding are essentially the same reasons as why some people with EUPD or complex trauma cut themselves??? Binding can cause bodily harm that is set inflicted, but this is not the same as ‘self harm’ as it is widely understood. But maybe people do actually think it is the same psychopathology? You could probably argue the case, but without this argument it just comes across as ignorance.

Stompythedinosaur · 09/11/2021 23:43

So, if you feel binders are unsafe, don't wear them. No one is going to force you to.

The focus on preventing others from doing so is strange. There are lots of things where there is a potential risk but people often decide the benefit to them outweighs this (for example, using weighted blankets). It is strange how it is only binders that cause people to rant and rave on mn though. Almost as if it isn't really about the risk!

Enough4me · 09/11/2021 23:47

Children!
Encouraging children to squash parts of their bodies and saying it's fine it's up to them?

They might want to sniff glue, but it's not given out readily in shops too children to let them have a go!

transman · 09/11/2021 23:50

I see the anti trans brigade is out in force. Mumsnet is full of anti trans posters.
What lush are doing is good. It helps people who can't afford binders.

No where does it say anything about targeting young kids.

This is the anti trans brigade, fear mongering as they know what response they will get on mumsnet.

You guys are uneducated on trans issues. Stop having ago at companies who help trans people.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 09/11/2021 23:52

@Stompythedinosaur

So, if you feel binders are unsafe, don't wear them. No one is going to force you to.

The focus on preventing others from doing so is strange. There are lots of things where there is a potential risk but people often decide the benefit to them outweighs this (for example, using weighted blankets). It is strange how it is only binders that cause people to rant and rave on mn though. Almost as if it isn't really about the risk!

How is it strange?

Under 18s can't buy embroidery scissors or cross-stitch kits (the blunt needle) in the supermarket without it triggering an automated age-check, in case they hurt themselves.

But under-18s should be sold binders?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 09/11/2021 23:54

What lush are doing is good. It helps people who can't afford binders

They are charging for them. You know this, yes?

But they don't offer exchange or refunds if you find it doesn't fit. Very helpful, I don't think.

Enough4me · 10/11/2021 00:04

Poor girls who worry about developing breasts, being looked at by men, worry about their weight and many already have eating disorders. Now they face binders when they just wanted to go shopping.

I am so glad my teen and her friends don't want to be part of this, but the worry statistics show that many girls are irreversibly damaging their bodies.

It's all so sad!

MonsignorMirth · 10/11/2021 00:13

It is strange how it is only binders that cause people to rant and rave on mn though

This is correct. I've literally never seen any thread on Mumsnet complaining about any other thing than binders.
Well done for pointing that out!

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/11/2021 00:21

Just had a thought. Now we're all wearing masks, there won't have been a thread about children eating grapes in the supermarket for years!

Enough4me · 10/11/2021 00:27

Can we identify a useful or fun purpose for binders to encourage girls who realise bruised and broken ribs isn't for them?

Perhaps they are good to wraparound sports shoes in a gym bag, as exercise is a healthy way to improve wellbeing and self body appreciation.

Stompythedinosaur · 10/11/2021 00:33

@Enough4me

Children! Encouraging children to squash parts of their bodies and saying it's fine it's up to them?

They might want to sniff glue, but it's not given out readily in shops too children to let them have a go!

Capacity in children is a complex issue, but it certainly isn't a case that young people cannot make decisions for themselves until they are 18. The teens I work with regularly make their own decisions about things like medications, treatments, therapies etc.

I don't believe it is infeasible that teens are able to weight the risks and benefits of using binders.

Why are you so determined that you are better positioned to make the choice for them?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/11/2021 00:39

Are the teens you work with encouraged to develop a decision making process for treatments that consists of buying pharmaceuticals online (after seeing an advertising post on social media) and picking the order up from a member of retail staff at a pick-up point in a high street store?

If not, I am confused why you would endorse such for binders.

Enough4me · 10/11/2021 00:56

Under 18s have pressure on them to fit in, be slim, be cool, and experiment. Trying out different clothes, hair, hobbies and chatting with new people would be healthy options for them to see who they are before they are coerced into making irreversible changes.

Pre18:
Alcohol, voting = no
Rib/breast tissue damage = rock on girls

It doesn't make sense and I can say this as a parent who is lucky my DD has resilience not to be dragged into fads.

verymiddleaged · 10/11/2021 01:24

The focus on preventing others from doing so is strange.

Other adults, maybe so.

Children and young people not so much.
We protect children from a huge range of activities undertaken by adults.

If and it is a big if, we are going to accept that dc have the capacity to give consent to this treatment I still see no reason for it to take place in soap shop.

Permanent physical damage to support mental health issues should require support and monitoring from medical professionals, not teenagers selling sparkling bath bombs.