competitiveness and normal life

[ehuiph999]

I would like to preamble this by saying that I have only lived in the UK for a couple of years and am still trying to figure things out.

Spent the weekend socializing with friends and acquaintances - it struck me that so much of life seems so competitive. We're all parents with school-age kids and my impression is that most people around us are just constantly striving for more or the next thing or this but better. E.g. schools - not just any school but the right school, similar with houses, but also things like cars, clothes, hobbies. We're all professionals in London and yes, I do expect for my kids to say go to a good uni and have ok job, but I am also often just dont care about having to get the right thing - when my friends and people around me seem to care quite a lot about stuff. I just feel somewhat at odds, I guess.

I also feel unsure as to how best to navigate things for the kids. We are unlikely to leave the UK in the near future so they will grow up here. As any parent, I would obviously like them to have a nice life and I guess go to a top uni and get a good job, as I did. So do I have to instill this sense of competitiveness at a young age?

I'm in the southwest and it's not like that at all here.

@ehuiph999 it sounds like we have the same DH as well!

@ThreeLocusts such a good comment - I have screenshot it to read when I need a reminder.

I really struggle with the class system here and the competitiveness, it’s pervasive. I am homesick.

@ehuiph999 it sounds like we have the same DH as well!

@ThreeLocusts such a good comment - I have screenshot it to read when I need a reminder.

I really struggle with the class system here and the competitiveness, it’s pervasive. I am homesick.

You could move out of London OP? Head for an area with a good state high school or senior school. Once they are there parents don't organise play dates the children do and then you can stop comparing and relax 😄

It's not a London thing - I'm in London - it's a social circle thing. If you draw your social circle from work colleagues when you yourself are a high achiever, you're much more likely to get highly aspirational types.
I made friends from other places - sports clubs, play group, the school gate - and avoid like the plague anyone who is label/status obsessed.

I guess it's just difficult as an immigrant to figure out what to accept and reject when living in a 'new' place. For example, I genuinely dont get DofE, like what even is it. Weird. Similar to competitive sports. But wouldnt want them to lose out when they apply for university places just because I didnt encourage them to do a set of extra-curricular activities.

@ehuiph999

I guess it's just difficult as an immigrant to figure out what to accept and reject when living in a 'new' place. For example, I genuinely dont get DofE, like what even is it. Weird. Similar to competitive sports. But wouldnt want them to lose out when they apply for university places just because I didnt encourage them to do a set of extra-curricular activities.

Universities will obviously be interested in genuine interests, but less interested in "I go to X because Mum makes me". How about you just encourage your children to go after lots of opportunities for additional activities? By 16, they are old enough that they will decide if they do or don't want to do stuff like DofE; you can then support those interests, but trying to "encourage" activities you and they have never had an interest in probably won't work. As a parent, surely you want your kids to have physical exercise they enjoy, friends, a well-rounded set of interests etc? Just do that instead of getting competitive, it doesn't work like you think.

No it’s all bollocks. Not everyone is like that so maybe try and find some like minded friends. Like you I went to a top Uni and ima teacher- a job I love but not really a part of the rat race either.

DofE is a weird one to pick on - it's non-competitive and supposed to be widely accessible.

I used to be an academic and did admissions and can confirm that universities only give the slightest toss about this stuff if you can link it cogently to your studies (and not much then). But deciding it's therefore a total waste of time seems to me to be the same attitude as doing these things only because you think they will get you into university. DofE definitely isn't a ticket to the Russell group but that doesn't make it redundant.

@gannett

I'm not immune to competitiveness and social status but I've always recognised it's driven by insecurity. As I've got older it's become a virtuous cycle - the more secure I am in who I am and how I validate myself, the less I care about how far up or down I am on someone else's hierarchy, and the happier I am the less I spend time thinking about it, and the less I care etc etc.

It's very hard to take people seriously when they outwardly put so much stock in such superficial things. It's like they're just exposing their insecurity to the world.

This is so true! Very well put!

@ehuiph999

I guess it's just difficult as an immigrant to figure out what to accept and reject when living in a 'new' place. For example, I genuinely dont get DofE, like what even is it. Weird. Similar to competitive sports. But wouldnt want them to lose out when they apply for university places just because I didnt encourage them to do a set of extra-curricular activities.

DofE is brilliant. It's all about whole person development, exploring interests, increasing resilience, making a positive contribution to society, getting along with others.

with regard to DoE why on earth are there badges? Why is there a bronze, silver, gold thing. If a kid wants to do outdoor stuff, do outdoor stuff; if they would like to help out locally, why don't they just do that. Why are the multiple badges? Why is it mainly posh kids doing it?

To me that comes across as competitive in so far as it encourages kids to do something/strive to achieve a gold for some reward. Fine they do that at school but in their free time?

The thing with London is that if you’re in the SW London bubble, you get caught up in what everyone else is doing. The right prep school (with assessment at 4, you’d think you’d be begging to take your £20k per year but no.), where it’s all about Leavers Destinations.
Then more extra curricular activities and structured play dates and the ski holidays and half term in Sani. Etc etc.
I’m not from the UK either and this stuff was all very alien. My sister in law and her children are older and I used to hear all about her children’s over scheduled social lives and the fact that the twins got into Bute House and think, (well aside from what the hell is Bute House) huh? Who cares? I’ll never do any of that.
And guess what, my DC only have Mondays with no extra curricular activities, Isla bikes all around (albeit they hold their value and there’s a great second hand market!) and I know exactly how hard it is to get into Bute House.

It’s very hard to step out of it in London, especially when everyone else is doing it.

They're different levels - gold, silver and bronze are a bit like how there's year 1, 2 and 3 at university, rather than how you can get a 1st, 2:1 or 2:2 at any of those levels. You get a gold for doing more stuff, rather than for doing the stuff well. But again, I don't really know why you're choosing a scheme you know nothing about as the specific target of your ire?

@ehuiph999

with regard to DoE why on earth are there badges? Why is there a bronze, silver, gold thing. If a kid wants to do outdoor stuff, do outdoor stuff; if they would like to help out locally, why don't they just do that. Why are the multiple badges? Why is it mainly posh kids doing it?

To me that comes across as competitive in so far as it encourages kids to do something/strive to achieve a gold for some reward. Fine they do that at school but in their free time?

To encourage them to strive for more. And it's not only posh kids who do it, that is very ignorant.

Dont they have badges and stuff in the scouts or guides? I think grades and markers of progression are something the human brain instinctively craves. Its visual. It's an in built thing we just somehow need. Like sticker charts.

OP you need to check your privilege. If you think kids across the social span have equitable access to outdoor pursuits, hobbies and community service, you need to brush up your knowledge. DofE is exactly designed to promote equity.

@Yayaga I don't understand sticker charts. My kids never had the attention span or persistence to follow a sticker chart. I tried. I used to set them up, they would vaguely pay attention for the first sticker, maybe the second and then honestly just couldn't be bothered. They would just lose interest in whatever it is they were interested in or were going to get if there was a sticker chart. Perhaps we're unusual.

And in terms of DofE being like university, surely the whole point is they already have school. Why make leisure time like uni. Uni is hard work, takes up a lot of time and can be quite stressful. I have three degrees so I should know. Leisure time is basically relaxation, enjoyment and fun. No?

See I just dont think I get it

It isn't like university, it was an analogy, but to be honest I think you're being deliberately obtuse (I realise that English may not be your first language, so apologies if I'm wrong but it does feel like you're missing the point on purpose) so I'll leave it there. I don't think you really want to understand any of these things, you want to muse on how much less grasping and materialistic you are than everyone else you know. Which is, ironically, quite a competition that you've created in your head (and given yourself a gold medal for)...

I dont know about the competitive angle but I definitely think there is a thing in the UK around a desire to formalise things. People often take courses or classes in leisure activities that in other cultures people might just quietly do at home, I put this down to a kind of built in tradition of having clubs and societies. You see it in things like uniforms and school houses and university societies too which you see much less of in other cultures. Maybe this has something to do with what you're seeing.

But also OP elsewhere in the UK, kids are just going to the park with their footballs in their down time. You chose the most privileged city and it's most privileged area. It's like moving to st tropez and asking why french people are so obsessed with status symbols.

Agree that D of E is a very odd thing to pick on - but I got the impression your kids were primary ages? If they’re D of E age surely you don’t really need to have more than most minimal contact with other school parents?!

I think you need to educate yourself on DofE before posting about it any further.

This is why I'm so glad we live abroad. Here it's acceptable to NOT be competitive. No kids at my son's school wear brands. It's not all who's who and what's what. Lots of people run second hand cars, kids wear hand me downs. And it's still middle class area. Different priorities.

I see SIL back in the UK with all this 'we've been here, there and everywhere' shit on fbook and wonder, who is she trying to impress?

Bute House is 7 grand per term. For a four year old