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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

competitiveness and normal life

133 replies

ehuiph999 · 08/11/2021 12:09

I would like to preamble this by saying that I have only lived in the UK for a couple of years and am still trying to figure things out.

Spent the weekend socializing with friends and acquaintances - it struck me that so much of life seems so competitive. We're all parents with school-age kids and my impression is that most people around us are just constantly striving for more or the next thing or this but better. E.g. schools - not just any school but the right school, similar with houses, but also things like cars, clothes, hobbies. We're all professionals in London and yes, I do expect for my kids to say go to a good uni and have ok job, but I am also often just dont care about having to get the right thing - when my friends and people around me seem to care quite a lot about stuff. I just feel somewhat at odds, I guess.

I also feel unsure as to how best to navigate things for the kids. We are unlikely to leave the UK in the near future so they will grow up here. As any parent, I would obviously like them to have a nice life and I guess go to a top uni and get a good job, as I did. So do I have to instill this sense of competitiveness at a young age?

OP posts:
dameofdilemma · 08/11/2021 17:14

If you've ever lived in Harrogate you'll know its definitely not a 'London' thing.

Anyone who thinks London is the only place with a huge wealth disparity, materialism, high earners, private schools, high value properties, flash cars and general snobbery, is in for a surprise.

There is no more a generic 'London' parent than there is a generic 'Northern' parent.

And what Wilko said!

minipie · 08/11/2021 17:19

I’m in SW London, dc at prep school and there’s a lot of this about.

It’s not just the brands of bikes/clothes, it’s the building project, holidays, kids’ activities, social life, full on hobbies.

It can feel like everyone must project an aura of busy successfulness at all times, in all areas of their life.

It is exhausting and I really dislike it. But we are kind of stuck here due to DH’s job.

Best solution IME is to seek out the other non competitive people who can’t be arsed with the whole “game” of keeping up. We are less noticeable than the flashy gang but we do exist and we will welcome you with open arms Smile

minipie · 08/11/2021 17:20

Agree this applies equally to other expensive areas of the UK.

Basically the type of person who earns enough to live in a very expensive area, is often (not always) very competitive and driven. Which unfortunately they often (not always) apply to all areas of their life.

Fomomofo · 08/11/2021 17:22

I generally don't hang around with people like that

WaterAndTheWild · 08/11/2021 17:45

I lived in SE London with kids at a state PS and it was still like this although no one would admit to it.

It was all about having/doing the 'right' things rather than the most expensive IYSWIM. I think that's where it's hard to fit in as a foreigner - especially when you have no interest in playing that game!

Otherpeoplesteens · 08/11/2021 17:50

@ThreeLocusts

Having moved to the UK from Germany and then left after 15 years, I'd say you've noticed something very important.

It's partly to do with specific social milieus, but overall I'd say ppl in the UK are more thoroughly defined by their jobs/lifestyle/professional status - there is less sense of having a subjectivity apart from these things, if that makes sense.

I think it has to do with the pervasiveness of class hierarchies and the active contempt of some well-off for the disadvantaged, which sets a tone even if most ppl are much more decent and generous.

There is also the fact that the middle class is relatively thin and the penalty for not being middle class, in terms of quality of life, health outcomes, life chances is steeper certainly than in the West Germany of my youth.

These things were very glaring where I worked (Cambridge Uni) and I didn't find a good way to handle them. I don't think you can really escape it. But some ppl are much more perceptive about it than others. Choose your friends well and teach your kids not to believe ppl who claim to have earned all they have.

This with bells on, especially about the penalty for not being middle class.

The only thing I would add is that so many things are scarce in the UK - there aren't enough decent schools, enough good jobs, enough housing, enough capacity in the healthcare system - it's hardly surprising that people develop sharp elbows. It is often the case that if you want something which comparable people in the rest of the developed world take for granted then you can only have it at someone else's expense.

dworky · 08/11/2021 18:04

Any situation can only be competitive if you agree to compete.

LitCrit · 08/11/2021 18:12

Stratified and therefore very competitive but overall pretty shit is absolutely UK 2021, Op. I find it so upsetting, especially since I feel I fell for the academic competitiveness then good uni hen good job thing (even though it made me unhappy and anxious). I now realise that what was just about possible for me in London definitely won’t be for my kids. I really really wish I’d just left them alone (and am doing so now). And trying to instil a belated sense that they are valued for other stuff and that they should look away from London to start a good life.

Original poster
ehuiph999 · 08/11/2021 18:32

But does that mean that we/I have to join in with this when it comes to DCs and their 'prospects'? Can kids really just study hard at school and ignore everything else and still do well? You definitely can in my home country but if I look around me, you'd think it's not possible in London

OP posts:
pigcon1 · 08/11/2021 19:23

I don’t think there is any one way OP, if your kids are happy and hard working they will do well.

Bluedabadeeba · 08/11/2021 19:38

On dear.. well you can opt in or opt out of all that crap, really. I went to a terrible state school, then a good uni (not a 'top uni').. and got on to a very competitive training course, whereas a family friend who when to an elite school for 18 years didn't make it. It's the family values that make the difference.. not the 'right stuff'... the materialistic values are also optional.. it's whatever is important to you!

ChateauMargaux · 08/11/2021 19:55

We used to live in West London, moved up North and now live abroad in a country where my kids have a great life but we are not competitive in the way that my London friends are. My kids will get good grades, hopefully get into courses that they want to do at University but I do have a sense of anxiety that perhaps we haven't instilled them with that competitive instinct they will need to succeed in the UK.. I hope not.. I hope that love of life and love of what they do will be enough to be content.

Original poster
ehuiph999 · 08/11/2021 20:01

@ChateauMargaux so am not imagining that it can be different, right? Even I sometimes forget that it'd not how I was raised but then I get confused about whats best to do with DCs

OP posts:
sunflowerroses · 08/11/2021 20:02

It's not something that resonates with me (South East but not London). I only know these sorts of things about my friends and their children as we spend a lot of time together and know a lot about each other, I've not noticed any competitiveness.

However, we do get our children Frog and Isla bikes! We buy them second hand and sell on for the same price pretty much when they've grown out of them! I have no idea what brands others have and it's not something I notice when out and about!

ChateauMargaux · 08/11/2021 20:14

I remind myself that I 'made it', lived in an expensive house in West London and all from a humble upbringing in a non competitive place.. . but then, I did leave it all behind for a quieter life.. so maybe didn't 'make it' after all.... oh well!

My children will have their own journey.... with their own twists and turns!!

(My youngest has an Isla bike that we had shipped here!!! You can run but you can't hide!)

ChateauMargaux · 08/11/2021 20:15

(it was second hand.. I feel like I should mention that... because.. well that is what you do with Isla bikes... see... I didn't get as far away as I thought!!)

Original poster
ehuiph999 · 08/11/2021 20:21

@sunflowerroses by competitiveness, I dont mean vis-a-vis us but in general e.g. being tutored, hobbies that seem very grown-up and selected for pretty young children, and often picked seemingly for kids to get ahead - no idea to where. It feels like around us, childhood has turned into some sort of competitive sport. So instead of thinking, it's nice that my kid does well at school, they now have the rest of their childhood to chill and relax. If you do music, you should do grades, with sport people often talk about which club, level their kid competes at. It's obviously lovely that kids are into things but for most it's just a hobby not training for a future career. I guess things like that really

OP posts:
Welshiefluff · 08/11/2021 20:25

there are only two brands of kids bike - Frog Bikes and Isla ones

I have an acquaintance who paid a lot of money for a Frog bike for her boy and she liked brand dropping about it to anybody who would listen. My HB happened to end up speaking to her in a social situation some while ago and he is a keen cyclist so she was in her element for a while but then HB started asking some questions.

What groupset does it have?
What is it made from?
Is it a hybrid, mountain or road?

She did not have a scooby do and I was a few metres away involved in another conversation wetting myself inside.

OP there are many parents who love buying brands for the sake of buying brands often I think this is a confidence issue and feel the need to comply with what others in their circle are doing. As long as they do not put you down then for your choices it does not really matter. For those people that do question your choices about not buying the socially acceptable brand you need to do a bit of questions asking about why their product is better than yours. More often than not they will be completely stumped for an answer and moves the convo along nicely.

Griefmonster · 08/11/2021 20:28

I can't understand from your OP whether you want to participate in this game (which is what it is) or not @ehuiph999?

You have identified a certain type of social posturing which is very common amongst UK middle class. It's entirely up to you whether you take part or not.

If you need an explainer look out for Grayson Perry's ch4 series on class from a few years back.

Welshiefluff · 08/11/2021 20:31

with sport people often talk about which club, level their kid competes at. It's obviously lovely that kids are into things but for most it's just a hobby not training for a future career

I would put that down to normal conversation. Otherwise what are you going to talk about? The colour of the kit?

TheBeeKeeperOfBournemouth · 08/11/2021 20:45

I wonder if you are in Chiswick or Ealing? I have family in west London although further out and this doesn't fit in with their upbringing. Or is it a private school thing?

I think that if the only thing your children do is study, then this WILL disadvantage them. Employers and universities want to see outside interests. But I honestly don't know if there is a "right" hobby? Surely you can pursue a hobby you are interested in? I can't imagine my DC submitting to a hobby they hates just because I said so.

@wolfstarling what part of Birmingham are you in?! This isn't my experience of the city. Things are generally more laid back here. Although I did prep my child for grammar so maybe I'm just a hypocrite Blush

Original poster
ehuiph999 · 08/11/2021 20:52

@Griefmonster my question is - is it necessary/essential to participate in it for kids to be ok or not in the long run, I guess? For example, I literally don't get why you have to do grades in music for say a six-year-old who isn't exactly a musical genius - I just had a music teacher. It's not that they talk about it, it's that their kids are involved in things that are constantly graded, categorized and judged. Which they can then talk about.

Is it a game? I guess you hear about Brits and class but it's often hard to figure out what it means in practice.

OP posts:
Hedgehog123 · 08/11/2021 20:59

Don’t get drawn in to this if you don’t want to -although I’m sure it’s difficult not to. It’s likely that you won’t know half these people in 10 years time and neither they nor you in will remember what coat your child had in year 4 or whatever.

Mooda · 08/11/2021 21:09

My DD17 has just applied to uni and to my massive surprise didn't mention a single extra curricular activity on her personal statement - she wrote purely about the subjects (dual honours), why she enjoys them and wants to study them further. She already has 2 good offers and Oxford pending. We were both wondering why she bothered with the dreaded DofE award ... 😂 Suspect the extra curricular activities for UCAS business may be a bit of an urban myth. Easy to get sucked into this stuff but it's basically just a heady mix of marketing and snobbery.

Griefmonster · 08/11/2021 23:00

[quote ehuiph999]@Griefmonster my question is - is it necessary/essential to participate in it for kids to be ok or not in the long run, I guess? For example, I literally don't get why you have to do grades in music for say a six-year-old who isn't exactly a musical genius - I just had a music teacher. It's not that they talk about it, it's that their kids are involved in things that are constantly graded, categorized and judged. Which they can then talk about.

Is it a game? I guess you hear about Brits and class but it's often hard to figure out what it means in practice.[/quote]
Short answer - no. It's not essential. The main thing is universally true - listen to your children and their interests and skills and nurture them.

Your "friends" haven't struck on a secret fast track to success.