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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

competitiveness and normal life

133 replies

ehuiph999 · 08/11/2021 12:09

I would like to preamble this by saying that I have only lived in the UK for a couple of years and am still trying to figure things out.

Spent the weekend socializing with friends and acquaintances - it struck me that so much of life seems so competitive. We're all parents with school-age kids and my impression is that most people around us are just constantly striving for more or the next thing or this but better. E.g. schools - not just any school but the right school, similar with houses, but also things like cars, clothes, hobbies. We're all professionals in London and yes, I do expect for my kids to say go to a good uni and have ok job, but I am also often just dont care about having to get the right thing - when my friends and people around me seem to care quite a lot about stuff. I just feel somewhat at odds, I guess.

I also feel unsure as to how best to navigate things for the kids. We are unlikely to leave the UK in the near future so they will grow up here. As any parent, I would obviously like them to have a nice life and I guess go to a top uni and get a good job, as I did. So do I have to instill this sense of competitiveness at a young age?

OP posts:
minipie · 08/11/2021 23:34

The extra curricular stuff is for (a) private senior school entry (stupidly competitive in London at the moment) and (b) bragging

LivesinLondon2000 · 09/11/2021 07:16

Totally get all of this. My DC are quite sporty, play a couple of sports at clubs near us (SW London) and always picked for A team.
However, this isn’t good enough in SW London - you’ve got to be doing county trials or it’s not worth doing the sport 😂 In fact, many parents pull their kids out if they don’t make that level to try another sport.
Recently I’ve found myself saying in conversation when asked ‘Oh DC1 is good at sport…. but not in a West London way’

The competitiveness over private schools is largely a result of the shortage of places. Huge population increase and higher birth rate in London has meant there’s a shortage of places meaning schools like St Paul’s etc much, much harder to get into than 20 years ago. The stories I hear about what some people do to their kids to get them into these schools border on child abuse.

Valeriane · 09/11/2021 07:35

@ehuiph999

If you're asking/reflecting on whether this is something your kids need to be doing then you're clearly in the same headspace as the people around you.

This isnt a world I know directly but it seems like a standard upper middle class thing. You've moved to probably the most upper middle class part of the UK's capital, so yeah, you are now part of what sounds like quite a competitive bubble.

You have the option of moving to a more normal part of London, but you dont want to do that. You have the expectation that your children go to "good universities and get good jobs", and presumably the part of London you moved to reflects that in the schools your kids now go to.

I think you are as competitive as the people around you and whether or not you buy your kid a specific brand of bike doesn't take away from that big picture fact.

BigGreen · 09/11/2021 07:39

Fab posts by LitCrit and ThreeLocusts.

Yes, it's about class and penalties but also it's the culture of the strand of capitalism that we have here in London. The financialization of everything also means that kids get optimised as assets.

It's a rotten philosophy that's a huge part of British life and governance now (can see it so clearly in the conduct of the current govt). The interests of global capital are relentlessly prioritised here.

Scarby9 · 09/11/2021 07:40

I'm in North Yorkshire. Where I am, it really isn't like what you describe for most people. I do know a few, but they have certainly been regarded by others with a kind of wondering bemusement at times.
It is possible to live in other ways in this country.

CounsellorTroi · 09/11/2021 07:48

@sunflowerroses by competitiveness, I dont mean vis-a-vis us but in general e.g. being tutored, hobbies that seem very grown-up and selected for pretty young children, and often picked seemingly for kids to get ahead - no idea to where. It feels like around us, childhood has turned into some sort of competitive sport. So instead of thinking, it's nice that my kid does well at school, they now have the rest of their childhood to chill and relax. If you do music, you should do grades, with sport people often talk about which club, level their kid competes at. It's obviously lovely that kids are into things but for most it's just a hobby not training for a future career. I guess things like that really

Hobbies that will look good on a future university application or CV - rather than just for the pleasure of them. Yes that’s definitely a thing.

50ShadesOfCatholic · 09/11/2021 07:54

They sound like cocks, it would put me off massively.

I have found that a lot of people talk a lot of shit, but also there are fantastic and interesting people who are not obsessed with superficial shite. People who are funny and real and creative, they're the best.

NotExactlyOptimistic · 09/11/2021 07:57

If it's any consolation I don't give a shit about One Upmanship and my friends don't either. I'm Midlands based and couldn't be doing with rat races or people who are never satisfied. If I can have a peaceful life with good health, good people and enough money to live a comfortable and pleasant but not extravagant lifestyle I'm very happy indeed.

NotExactlyOptimistic · 09/11/2021 07:59

@Scarby9

I'm in North Yorkshire. Where I am, it really isn't like what you describe for most people. I do know a few, but they have certainly been regarded by others with a kind of wondering bemusement at times. It is possible to live in other ways in this country.
I'm so jealous! If I won the lottery I'd be up there by the sea within days x
TreborBore · 09/11/2021 08:06

People with this shallow, vacuous mindset live all over so are hard to avoid completely but there are a lot of them in the South East and parts of the Midlands.

magicstars · 09/11/2021 08:07

Really not my experience now I live in the south coast. However, Home Counties competition is exhausting, I really don't miss it since moving away from a salubrious commuter town.

bigbluebus · 09/11/2021 08:35

It's definitely not like that where I live. I doubt that most people at the school gate here would know what an Isla bike was.
One or two strive to get their DCs into the grammar schools which are the only 2 in the county (one girls, one boys) but it's certainly not the norm probably due to distance (I suspect it's very different in the town where those schools are).

sunflowerroses · 09/11/2021 09:07

@CounsellorTroi @ehuiph999 I'm sure it is a thing, but it's not something I've experienced among my fellow parents. Mine do hobbies they've chosen which I think are age appropriate and they really love, they do a few different things so maybe I'm inadvertently one of these parents! I don't talk much about it apart from to good friends where inevitably it comes up.

MRex · 09/11/2021 09:16

I live in West London and think you've misunderstood some things. Short version: you really don't need to spend your time talking about shopping and people just boast about kid achievements because they love their kids... but you might need tutors.

Brands chat - almost nobody gives a shit what you buy, they only care what they buy and only a very few (nouveau riche anxious types) will give any headpace over to shopping chat. People mention the best bikes are Frog, Vitus, Carrera etc because they are; that isn't about showing off class, it's just that the bikes are half the weight of an old fashioned style of bike. The few anxious types who feel they don't fit in might name-drop more about shopping, but just be polite and they'll move on, while you make more interesting friends.

Hobbies and achievement - there is no "right" hobby. People are just proud of their kids and talking up what they do in the only way they know how, which is a bit boastful but only because that's how they talk. It can be boring, but again nobody cares what your kids do, only their own; your job is to get your kids to do things they love. If that's learning a language or music then those will be linked to exams because that's how tutors show they are succeeding, but your kid doesn't have to take them if they don't want to and swimming or scouts are fine too.

Tutors for getting into private or grammar secondary schools - I've no idea if they are essential or not, but everyone gets them for the final year of primary so you'll probably need to if those schools suit your DC. Private and grammar schools offer a good education that can help with getting into uni, but if your child is bright then they'll get in somewhere so it isn't a big deal.

HitchhikersGuide · 09/11/2021 09:18

Try not to get caught up in the madness! It's hard, but it's possible! The children of the comfortably-off London middle classes will all basically end up at the same places. Obviously for some that will be oxbridge, for others Russell GP, for others Rada or Guildhall, and eventually will have a decent job and a nice ish house in a leafy part of London! Whether they have the 'right' bike or not is irrelevant to that. Ditto the 'right' hobbies... There is no right or wrong!
If you're feeling a bit horrified (as I did/still do!) make sure you steel yourself for the 11+ Grin.
Honestly it's all so silly. Try to rise above!

Rugsofhonour · 09/11/2021 09:28

This reply has been deleted

Withdrawn at the user's request

TreborBore · 09/11/2021 09:31

Oh dear @MRex

people just boast about kid achievements because they love their kids
I would lay down my life for mine and they are doing great but I would never boast about them in real life. It’s not all about me me me…

MRex · 09/11/2021 09:35

That's great for you @TreborBore, you must be delightful company.

Verfremdungseffekt · 09/11/2021 09:58

We're all parents with school-age kids and my impression is that most people around us are just constantly striving for more or the next thing or this but better. E.g. schools - not just any school but the right school, similar with houses, but also things like cars, clothes, hobbies.

I concluded after many years in the UK, having a child there, that it came from a culturally-specific form of social anxiety, prevalent among the middle and lower-middle classes. It's a terror of being 'left behind', a fear of not 'getting on' relative to other people. It comes from a lack of confidence.

(Hang out with more foreigners would be my ultimate advice.)

I actually found it way more tiresomely prevalent outside of London when we moved away -- lots of the people we knew in London were living with kids in tiny Soho flats because they liked it, or creatives living on air as property guardians, or had interesting jobs as literary agents or opera directors that didn't make them much money, or where incomes fluctuated. (Obviously, even living frugally in central London is expensive, but these people chose that over private schools or flash cars.)

Living in a midlands village was the first time I'd lived somewhere in England where I saw bafflement and suspicion that the income we were clearly presumed to have from our jobs (and in fact did have) didn't translate into the kind of house, clothes, car and possessions etc we 'should' have had. I mean, I only worked this out after a few years of living there -- I was initially just surprised that people I barely knew were so eager to come to our house, or seemed to struggle with us not putting DS into a private school, or that we didn't ski.

Now I no longer live in the UK. I live in a traditionally-prestigious city neighbourhood dominated by often extremely expensive but generally rather battered Regency and Victorian houses, inhabited by senior medics and architects and academics (because it's near hospitals and the university) but also by Deliveroo delivery people and student rentals, all of whom cycle or walk everywhere (the steep terrain means many houses have no off-street parking, so a lot of people don't have cars), and virtually all of whom send their children to the nearest school, where DS goes. Unless they're actually wearing a Deliveroo backpack, you can't tell by looking whether the person cycling past in a helmet and hi-vis is a cardiothoracic consultant or a music student. Don't get me wrong -- there's a huge amount of social and cultural capital washing around here, but it's not generally being expressed by choice of possessions, clothes, children's education, holidays etc.

Social competitiveness is a choice, and a fucking tiresome one. Opt out.

ablutiions · 09/11/2021 10:20

@TeallyMcTealson

Do you live in West London?
😂😂😂😂

@ehuiph999 I've found this too. You are likely to find 'your tribe' the longer you stay here, and the more you open up about your values and what is important to you.

I was totally bewelldered as a new parent, and new to london, when people started talking about holiday homes and skiing holidays (all out of my experience and income level). Soon found some gems of people to be friends with who dont give a toss about those things.

I just chose not to participate in conversations when people were engaging in the one upmanship re houses, cars etc. I have lovely friends now, some rich, some not, but all non-materialistic / down to earth (well as much as you can be in a London suburb and an urban lifestyle!)

It takes time to settle, but plough your own furrow and the friends will appear.

@

Fomomofo · 09/11/2021 10:23

Surely it's only a competition if you take part

JollyJoo · 09/11/2021 10:26

@Verfremdungseffekt
creatives living on air as property guardians, or had interesting jobs as literary agents or opera directors that didn't make them much money
🤣 Umm, yeah, that's not "living on air", it's called living off a trust fund.

The fact that you think any of the twats you met actually living in central London would have been lower middle class shows you have absolutely no understanding of the UK class system. Even middle middle classes can barely afford Zone 4.

foxgoosefinch · 09/11/2021 10:26

It's definitely got worse, all over the country, not just London (though London's particularly bad). I find myself longing for the world I grew up in in the 80s in a provincial town - it's not like there was never any competitiveness, but by and large most people just had a normal house and normal jobs and cars and a quiet lifestyle.

Obviously social media, etc. has made everything so much more competitive, but it's also a legacy of the early 2000s long boom, especially in housing, where ordinary people were encouraged to become buy to let landlords and make money on housing and spend it on massive overconsumption of flashy items.

It seems like a quieter, more inter-personal culture has become a much more money-oriented, display-focused, materialist one on a large scale. I find it quite upsetting and worrying for my daughter's future tbh, it's not healthy or fulfilling to live like this.

LivesinLondon2000 · 09/11/2021 11:41

@JollyJoo
😂
Yes I know quite a few of those. Tend to be writers, designers etc who also have second homes, send kids to private school and look down on the rest of us for doing ‘boring’, non-creative jobs such as accountancy in the city.

Took me ages to work out how they could afford their lifestyles until I realised it was just family money. Only a bit jealous 😂

Verfremdungseffekt · 09/11/2021 11:50

[quote JollyJoo]@Verfremdungseffekt
creatives living on air as property guardians, or had interesting jobs as literary agents or opera directors that didn't make them much money
🤣 Umm, yeah, that's not "living on air", it's called living off a trust fund.

The fact that you think any of the twats you met actually living in central London would have been lower middle class shows you have absolutely no understanding of the UK class system. Even middle middle classes can barely afford Zone 4.[/quote]
I can assure you none of these people had trust funds. With my own parents a bin man and a cleaner, who started my London life (I'm not from the UK) living in a Kilburn squat, those aren't really my circles. Grin

Some of them were sofa surfing when they were in London for a project. A couple had no base at all. My opera director friend (non British dad was a builder, mother had a grocery shop) lived out of a suitcase because he was always on the road.

The literary agent friend was funding starting her list with a FT job as an assistant to an established agent, which meant that she worked round the clock with her own clients. She lived in a bedsit in Elephant and Castle at one point (the reason I remember this is that it had a shared bathroom with a leak in the bath plugged with a plastic bag) and relied on nibbles at literary events for a significant portion of her diet.

The person living in property guardian places was actually DH's nephew, and his father is a delivery driver and his mother a cleaner. Not a trust fund in sight.

And you're misunderstanding my post. I said that I saw social competitiveness primarily among the middle and lower-middle classes. There was nothing socially competitive about what these people I knew in London were doing, and a lot of looked like very little fun. The property guardian places were often grim (and a total rip off) -- one of them was a disused office block and DH's nephew's room was just an open-plan office that still had stacked office furniture at one end.

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