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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think not all MLMs are bad?!

126 replies

Exhausted5487 · 08/11/2021 09:22

First off - full disclosure that I did once purchase a Neal's Yard starter set because it was amazing value and for a year my family and I enjoyed the 25% discount. I never flogged it or even considered doing so.

However aibu to think there are legit MLMs out there and it's unfair to cast them all in the same net? Obviously there are a lot of dodgy ones and pushy sellers. The main negative for me is people "investing" in them when they can't really afford to because they think they'll definitely make money. Elle Beau's blog shows how awful Younique are. However NYR, Body shop and Avon are all genuine, good quality businesses. I have a lot of friends who sell body shop...personally I have never bought anything from them but I've also never felt pressured to. I also never had any pressure to sell anything when I was briefly a "representative" for NYR.

Genuinely interested to hear why they are all the same if IABU!

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LanaDelBoy · 08/11/2021 09:25

How would a decent one work? With specifics?
They all rely on you recruiting people to recruit people. The only way to get successful and recruit hundreds of people means your customer pool is totally flooded with sellers so no-one buys.

So how do you envision loads of people making money from others making money? Where does the money come from, and in exchange for what?

thisplaceisweird · 08/11/2021 09:25

THEY ARE ALL BAD OP. That's it. Yes, they are all bad.

Those with retail stores do pay their workers a fair rate (because the law says so) but they still willingly utilise the MLM business model to make profit.

This business model purposefully leaves those at the bottom in minus figures, and preys on a very specific and often vulnerable demographic.

Wrong wrong wrong

authenticforgery · 08/11/2021 09:27

It's like arguing not all scams or cons are bad. They're shit.

LanaDelBoy · 08/11/2021 09:27

Also, if I want to buy Body Shop, what's the benefit in going through a salesperson and not just ordering online with one of the many discount codes they always send?

Exhausted5487 · 08/11/2021 09:33

Thanks... @lanadelboy @thisplaceiswierd you explain it well! @authenticforgery fair enough!

Just something I've wondered from time to time and knew it would be very clearly explained if I put it on here Grin as I said, I have no desire to run one.

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thisplaceisweird · 08/11/2021 09:33

@LanaDelBoy

Also, if I want to buy Body Shop, what's the benefit in going through a salesperson and not just ordering online with one of the many discount codes they always send?
Great point.

Their MLM 'salespeople' are the customer in this case OP - The Body Shop make money off them buying their 'stock', not by them selling it.

FluffyBooBoo · 08/11/2021 09:36

I would say Neals Yard is different to some others I've heard about because they don't make claims on earnings, your minimum spend to remain a consultant is about £80 in one month, once per year, and there are no sales targets to hit. They are quite happy for you to sign up in order to get discounts for your own purchases only.

LolaSmiles · 08/11/2021 09:39

The MLM model is inherently exploitative and relies on the downlands lining the pockets of the uplines.

The MLM system is designed so most people lose money and most MLMs rely on targeting women, especially at times when they are vulnerable such as on maternity leave or when they're feeling apprehensive about returning returning work in order to hook them in.

daimbarsatemydogsbone · 08/11/2021 09:40

I think Avon would be a bit annoyed at being called MLM.

See also Body Shop. As far as I know the more legit direct sales don't have the Multiple levels which characterise the really crappy schemes.

MLMs are nothing less than a dodge to get around the fact that pyramid selling is (rightly) illegal. The only people making significant money are the owners of the business and a very very very few people high up in the "levels".

Exhausted5487 · 08/11/2021 09:42

@fluffybooboo I think that's why I thought it was okay. I didn't feel conned into buying it, I was well aware that the people above me would be making money off me...but I got to have 25% off so it felt worth it. It didn't feel like an unreasonable amount to have to spend in a year to keep an account.

But I see the others points that the system is still the same and money is made for the company in the same way...so perhaps it is marginally more ethical in it's approach but still bad.

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Orchidflower1 · 08/11/2021 09:44

I agree @daimbarsatemydogsbone I don’t see Avon as an MLM as they don’t recruit in the same way. Yes it’s commission based earning but so is lots of work.

nurserypolitics · 08/11/2021 09:46

I'd also like to understand the difference between the MLM model and things like Avon and body shop.

My understanding with the very old school Avon model was it was a way for women, often mothers, with small children to make some extra money. They'd have networks, often of women with their own small children, for whom it was much more convenient and relaxing to go to someone's house and have products explained to them than to traipse into a town centre while frazzled.Win-win for everyone, no recruiting other people, no cost of renting premises for the main business, all ok.

The MLM model as I understand it is just a way to turn pyramid selling into something more legit: its not at all about products people particularly want to buy, its about getting people to 'work' for you so you get a percentage of their sales, and using personal networks to pressure people to buy random sounding products because its your mate selling them.

What I don't understand is whether Avon and Body Shop are still in the first camp, and if they are, what's so intrinsically bad about it, and if they're not, what has changed. I mention those two because Body Shop is obviously a product people still want given they have lots of shops, and Avon used to feature in some 'best beauty product' prizes so certainly traditionally seemed ok. I completely see how all the weird aloe vera products are essentially scams, and anything whether you have to 'recruit' people below you to make a profit, but not sure about the rest.

Exhausted5487 · 08/11/2021 09:47

@daimbarsatemydogsbone

I think Avon would be a bit annoyed at being called MLM.

See also Body Shop. As far as I know the more legit direct sales don't have the Multiple levels which characterise the really crappy schemes.

MLMs are nothing less than a dodge to get around the fact that pyramid selling is (rightly) illegal. The only people making significant money are the owners of the business and a very very very few people high up in the "levels".

But they work in the same way so they are MLMs. They still have the layers of sellers, body shop and NYR do anyway. I assume Avon falls into the same bracket as well. I thought that they seemed different and not as pushy so were okay but people have made really good points as to why they're still not great.
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Gottahavehighhopes · 08/11/2021 09:48

The problem with mlm is that everyone is motivated to lie. Its like asking a car salesman if he thinks his opinions on the only type of car he is selling. They are often selling the business dream rather than the product, and even when it's the product they are promoting then it's a complete wild West. People are encouraged to approach people that have just have babies to sell weightloss products etc in ways traditional buisness wouldn't dare

They don't follow the regulations and it leaves them free to tell you 100% this product is safe with skin conditions etc and make outrageous claims that other companies would be sued for. Theres zero sense of accountability when the claims are made by Jane on Facebook. Jane has a product to flog and isn't afraid of the same rules to try and sell it or recommend it in every situation

There's two mlm that pop up frequently for me scentsy and skin care ones, both have reps making completely incorrect claims.

Scentsy for example is non toxic so sellers always pop up on my specific type of small animal page, scentsy is categorically bad for my type of animal (as are all fragranced products) however sellers will swear blue that it completely is. However its often clear that they genuinely believe it is, because all they are told about their product comes from someone else in their living room higher up the chain. I've seen messaged trails (when people have been questioned on it) and it's full of sellers at each point of the market who clearly don't know what they are talking about reassuring others "it's totally fine babe. All natural hun x". Tina that's trying to sell it to me gets her information from Jane that profits from Tina selling the product, who gets her information from some other boss babe.

I also have a skin condition and the amount of mlm products that people are somehow able to sell as curing psoriasis, eczema etc or as totally safe is out standing. The last time I questioned it on a Facebook selling group (one of the ingredients was something that's clearly contraindicated for the condition that someone asked about). Someone in the upline got involved and clearly said they were , then said they weren't in the upline to try and pretend to be impartial

It's like asking that car sales man if he thinks this car is suitable for your family

Family members that are in mlm have been outright lied to by uplines. When things weren't working she was strongly encouraged that to spend more, invest more including paying for things like going on retreats where they'd tell her how to sell more.
Eventually when she'd got slightly higher she realised that she'd been lied to. The people who'd been telling her how much they'd made had been fudging things. For example they said they sold x amount this month but were making it look like profit but that was their down lines and theirs product sales not how much money they were taking away.
Any conversation about actually how few people were making anything close to minimum wage (and were being left in debt by starter packs, buying boosts or buying stock themselves to up figures) was dismissed as people not trying hard enough, "some people join just to buy the product for them selves' so it was impossible to get a grasp of how much money anyone was making

Ultimately she realised the whole model didn't work when she was encouraged to recruit like mad, then her area became overwhelmed by sellers all competing for the same market

When she left her upline told her it was all her fault, she should have tried harder, tried to get her to buy her own stock (because if she made a certain grade of seller then her life would be easier", tried to redistribute stock so the same sales were registered multiple times.

She made some money but nothing more than she'd of got doing a few hours a week in a shop, nothing close to a wage, instead she devoted so much time, lost friends (there just jealous babe x) and calls it the lost years

FluffyBooBoo · 08/11/2021 09:49

I think that's why I thought it was okay

I think if you go in with your eyes open, the way a place like NY does it can be okay. But that depends on who 'recruits' you, and how they sell it to you.

But I think generally @LolaSmiles post is spot on.

LanaDelBoy · 08/11/2021 09:51

If you make more money from recruiting others to sell than you do selling, it's an MLM.
I don't count Avon among them and don't know much about the BSAH or NY models as I boycott both of them for other reasons! (NY tried to sell homeopathic malaria remedies then refused to answer questions about it in a Q&A, plus other dodgy things.

Exhausted5487 · 08/11/2021 09:52

@nurserypolitics I thought that Avon worked in the same way but bodyshop and NYR definitely do work in a similar way to other MLMs in that you make more money if you recruit people who then recruit people etc. However as you say they are genuine products and you can make a nice bit of side money by just selling the products. Hence why I've always thought they seemed okay...glad I'm not the only one that thought that!

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LanaDelBoy · 08/11/2021 09:52

The thing is you need to compare the business models - what earns you how much money- which the MLM companies are very guarded about and make as opaque as possible, on purpose.

Gottahavehighhopes · 08/11/2021 09:54

Avon massively changed a few years ago, the focus is increasingly on recruiting rather than the products

You also have to buy your stock and catalogues for Avon so there's outlay and risk for the seller, and the potential to never get your money back

travellingjezebel.com/is-avon-a-pyramid-scheme-a-deep-dive-into-avon/

daimbarsatemydogsbone · 08/11/2021 09:55

I just went off and did a bit of Googling - it seems there are a lot of people saying even Avon and Body Shop are MLMs - on the basis that there are levels and incentives. I guess it's really a question of semantics - it's a bit like arguing about musical genres really.

Exhausted5487 · 08/11/2021 09:56

@gottahavehighhopes a perfect example of awful MLMs! One of the reasons I never wanted to try to sell it is because I don't know that first thing about skincare so I would have felt like a right plonker trying to sell it!

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FluffyBooBoo · 08/11/2021 09:56

NY tried to sell homeopathic malaria remedies then refused to answer questions about it in a Q&A, plus other dodgy things

Yikes! I was with them for a while because their products were the only things that helped my (thankfully no longer an issue) skin condition, and the discount was very useful. Their products, in general, are very good, and they do have solid fair trade principles. The consultants don't sell anything homeopathic at all (they don't carry the full range). But it is definitely an MLM. As is BSAH. I don't think Avon is, but I could be wrong on that.

daimbarsatemydogsbone · 08/11/2021 09:57

I think we can all agree that (almost) no-one makes any significant money from direct selling/MLMs, and the fact that some of them claim anyone can make large sums is at best misleading.

Gottahavehighhopes · 08/11/2021 09:57

I know lots of people with bad experience on the body shop. They were encouraged to spend hundreds of pounds on starter kits etc

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-8526647/amp/Promise-luxury-lifestyle-turn-nightmare-mounting-debt-marriages-threat.html

FluffyBooBoo · 08/11/2021 09:58

Ok, cross post. Seems like I am wrong on that.