To despise being called ‘cis’?

[Ostryga]

I’m not ‘cis’. I’m not ‘cisgendered’. I’m literally a woman. I’ve just read a guardian article that calls women seeking IVF cisgendered.

Why????

Just unfollowed/unsubscribed from The Allusionist podcast this morning due to her use of ciswoman

@jellyfrizz

Ah, I see the problem. You believe that the old-fashioned stereotypes have some merit or accuracy. Feminists don't.

That's not saying you are not a feminist, that's defining feminism in a way you may not agree with. You are then choosing to see that as you not being a feminist.

Which is interesting given this whole thread being about changing definitions of words and the affect that has on people's identities.

‘Feminists don’t believe that thing you just said’ is another way of saying ‘I don’t think you’re a feminist’.

Defining feminism to exclude people who don’t agree with you is gate keeping.

It’s bullshit and exclusionary and I’m not going to accept it.

I have a vagina. I am a woman as was my mother as was her mother as was hers and countless generations before her. I do not and will not recognise cis anything. I don't care what anyone else wants to call themselves but I am a woman.

I'm with you 1000%. Anyone who attempted to refer to me as anything other than a woman (which is what I am) would be very soundly rebuked!

@bendmeoverbackwards

Another term I can’t stand - ‘they’ for non binary. They is PLURAL 🤦‍♀️

Not always. It is regularly used when the gender of the person is unknown, eg "I nearly got knocked down by a driver, they came flying round the corner and I had to jump out of their way."

@foxgoosefinch

*What we need to focus on is ending the oppression and we don’t do that by denying our femaleness, we do it by fighting for it to be valued.

I can only conclude that by denying any innate female qualities, your internal misogyny is strong - you can’t even bear to think you aren’t identical to the ‘better’ sex.*

What a load of…well. It’s definitely not me who keeps misrepresenting what others are saying.

Of course there are innate differences. But they aren’t “gender traits”. They’re the material facts of our bodies. Our physical differences; our reproductive capacities; our different needs as a result of this. But none of these are “innate gender traits”: they are the realities of sex.

Valuing femaleness is valuing those things - our capacity to give birth; our roles as mothers as a result; our innate value as human being who are 50% of the species. What it’s not is valuing “women’s special ability to be empathetic as an innate trait” or whatever. I’m actually delighted not to be a man (I’m bisexual/lesbian so liking women’s bodies kind of comes along with that, funnily enough… ) I like women because they are women, not because they have lovely feminine traits that I think are super nice personality traits to have, or because I’m attracted to their inner gender identity.

Our innate woman-ness is our biology. As women.

Of course it’s bullshit to suggest your internal misogyny is strong because you think a certain way. That’s the point I am trying to make.

Don’t discount my feelings and my beliefs because they don’t align with yours. We have very different philosophical world views, and I respect your right to define your own set of language and understanding; offer me the same courtesy. (See? I didn’t say ‘kindly’ offer me the same courtesy. I’m learning).

Cis is a slur. I am a woman. I don't need a prefix to confirm it.

@MumW

Another term I can’t stand - ‘they’ for non binary. They is PLURAL 🤦‍♀️ ^This

More than happy to use something other than s/he but I find using plurals awkward and unnatural.

“I have a new boss starting on Monday. I hope they is nice.”

“I don’t agree with what you said. I hope you is not angry.”

Yes, plurals are definitely awkward.

@thatonehasalittlecar on the contrary! I completely agree that there are always plenty of feminists who collude with their own oppression! I said that already earlier in the thread! We all do to some degree, but some strains of feminism do so more or less than others.

What it’s not is valuing “women’s special ability to be empathetic as an innate trait” or whatever

Exactly - because this is drummed into us from childhood just as it is drummed into boys that they can put themselves first.

I just hope that anger is an acceptable 'femaleness' trait because I've been bloody angry at this bullshit my entire life.

Of course it’s bullshit to suggest your internal misogyny is strong because you think a certain way. That’s the point I am trying to make.

But it's only you who has mentioned internal misogyny? No one else has said this.

There are literally five biological markers that go to make you female or male sex. Some people don't tick all the boxes for one sex or the other. What gender you are then assigned at birth and brought up as usually depends on what you most closely resemble. No-one is brought up intersex or genderless; even though 2% of the population is neither biologically male or female.
Gender is an entirely social construct- it is whether you fit with society's expectations of what women should be. Most feminists agree that the experience of being brought up as a woman defines how society treats you as a person. Identifying as a woman is because you have been brought up that way. You have expectations and training. Just like you may identify as being British, or middle-class. It's an experience, a way of being.
Some people don't agree with the gender they have been assigned and brought up as. Gender dysmorphia is a very real condition. The only way to help with this condition is transition. The more you "other" trans people and say they aren't women, the more you make them different, the more you shape the way society sees them. It does not help trans people, it just makes them more unsafe.
That's not a "theory" - that's observable, scientific fact.
"Cis" is just a technical term. It's someone whose identity and assignation matches their biological sex. Those who get offended by it are putting their own illogical and unscientific bias towards it.

""58Electricbug321

@Scoutingformygirls

I understand male violence as violence against women driven by misogyny and toxic masculinity. If a trans man kills a woman (cis or trans) then I would consider it male violence. That being said, I do believe that statistics should capture whether the perpetrators and victims are cis/trans/natal (whichever terminology is acceptable) for the purposes you describe.""

Surely the quickest, easiest and most absolutely clear way of recording and discussing these crimes would be to use sex based categories? And in addition record whether it was a trans based hate crime? In doing so we could really clearly target prevention and support for victims to where it is most needed. It is the determination to use language in ways the majority don't understand or agree with that makes this whole thing impossible and detrimental to those who may need the most help.

@Sladurche

There are literally five biological markers that go to make you female or male sex. Some people don't tick all the boxes for one sex or the other. What gender you are then assigned at birth and brought up as usually depends on what you most closely resemble. No-one is brought up intersex or genderless; even though 2% of the population is neither biologically male or female. Gender is an entirely social construct- it is whether you fit with society's expectations of what women should be. Most feminists agree that the experience of being brought up as a woman defines how society treats you as a person. Identifying as a woman is because you have been brought up that way. You have expectations and training. Just like you may identify as being British, or middle-class. It's an experience, a way of being. Some people don't agree with the gender they have been assigned and brought up as. Gender dysmorphia is a very real condition. The only way to help with this condition is transition. The more you "other" trans people and say they aren't women, the more you make them different, the more you shape the way society sees them. It does not help trans people, it just makes them more unsafe. That's not a "theory" - that's observable, scientific fact. "Cis" is just a technical term. It's someone whose identity and assignation matches their biological sex. Those who get offended by it are putting their own illogical and unscientific bias towards it.

You are mixing up sex and gender here.

I hate being referred to as "cis".

Some ‘people with wombs’ don’t want to be called ‘women’, they identify as men, but have the wrong shaped bodies.

What a load of bollocks. I don't have a womb and I have a "wrong-shaped body" - my legs are too short and my waist too long. Plus, I can extra weight around my middle.

Those facts don't change my sex.

@Sladurche

There are literally five biological markers that go to make you female or male sex. Some people don't tick all the boxes for one sex or the other. What gender you are then assigned at birth and brought up as usually depends on what you most closely resemble. No-one is brought up intersex or genderless; even though 2% of the population is neither biologically male or female. Gender is an entirely social construct- it is whether you fit with society's expectations of what women should be. Most feminists agree that the experience of being brought up as a woman defines how society treats you as a person. Identifying as a woman is because you have been brought up that way. You have expectations and training. Just like you may identify as being British, or middle-class. It's an experience, a way of being. Some people don't agree with the gender they have been assigned and brought up as. Gender dysmorphia is a very real condition. The only way to help with this condition is transition. The more you "other" trans people and say they aren't women, the more you make them different, the more you shape the way society sees them. It does not help trans people, it just makes them more unsafe. That's not a "theory" - that's observable, scientific fact. "Cis" is just a technical term. It's someone whose identity and assignation matches their biological sex. Those who get offended by it are putting their own illogical and unscientific bias towards it.

This is erroneous. People with DSD's are either male or female. They may not fit as neatly into either category as most of us, but they are either male or female.

Gender Dysphoria is very real ; however, affimative care is most certainly NOT the only way to help. In fact, if you leave most dysphoric children alone; which is to say, you don't socially transition them through name changing or pronoun usage, the vast majority of them will outgrow the dysphoria.

I find cis offensive. Its not up to you to say that I shouldn't be offended by sexist nonsense. Behave yourself.

None of the men who have assaulted me over the years ever felt the need to ask for my pronouns or gender identity because they knew I was a woman by looking at me. And I'm not particularly feminine.

Being a woman is not something you have to identify as ; its something you simply are.

even though 2% of the population is neither biologically male or female.

This is not true unless you consider people with PCOS to be neither male or female.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000222z

''Gender dysmorphia is a very real condition. The only way to help with this condition is transition .''

Thats not true, is it? There are various types of body dysmorphia, none of the others are treated by accepting they are reality. You dont starve a person with anorexia, you dont encourage a person with bulimia to binge and fast and purge. You dont encourage a man with a body building obsession to inject himself with synthol.

And its not considered 'conversion therapy' to give people with any other type of dysmorphia treatment to help them accept reality.

That's not a "theory" - that's observable, scientific fact.

Well very little of your post @Sladurche has anything to do with scientific fact. To start with, 2% of the population is definitely NOT “not biologically male or female”.

What dodgy website did you copy and paste all that rubbish from? On MN you don’t get very far with regurgitating bollocks and claiming it’s “scientific” - this isn’t Tumblr or Discord. There are lots of actual women scientists on here who are about to hand you your arse on a plate so do brace yourself 👍

”Cis" is just a technical term. It's someone whose identity and assignation matches their biological sex. Those who get offended by it are putting their own illogical and unscientific bias towards it.

By that token transwo/men are technical terms - getting offended by it is illogical and unscientific.

(Also @Sladurche you are mixing up the words dysmorphia and dysphoria, just so you know, plus your post contains numerous basic grammatical errors - but you’re clearly a rookie at this so I’m just going to hand over the baton to others now.)

"Cis" is just a technical term. It's someone whose identity and assignation matches their biological sex.

You’re presuming everyone has a gender identity and that it can be easily defined.

Thats not true, is it?

It’s complete cobblers. There are many ways of helping people with gender dysphoria. Only a certain % of people with gender dysphoria want to transition.

‘Feminists don’t believe that thing you just said’ is another way of saying ‘I don’t think you’re a feminist’.

Defining feminism to exclude people who don’t agree with you is gate keeping.

It’s bullshit and exclusionary and I’m not going to accept it.

So call out the use of that definition rather than accepting the definition and redefining yourself within that.

Most feminists agree that the experience of being brought up as a woman defines how society treats you as a person.