The Labour Party are unelectable. Can they turn it around? What would they need to do to gain your trust?

[flashbac]

After another week of corrupt shenanigans from the Tories (last week was allowing literal shit pumping into watercourses, this week attempting to set aside a finding of dodgy dealings) we would still be stuck with them if there was a snap election tomorrow.

The Labour brand has become far too toxic. Keir is next to useless and all of them listen to the wrong people instead of instinctively knowing what to fight for. If they can turn it around and rebuild trust it won't be a quick or easy job. They have lost all credibility.

What do they need to do to rebuild trust or is it too late?

For me they need to start with the following:

• Get a leader with charisma and strong values surrounding fairness. The current one just doesn't cut it.
• know wtf a woman is. Stop trying to erase natal women as a sex class.

What's on your wishlist for a credible alternative to the Tories?

[quote luckylavender]**@Libertaire* @BackBackBack* - I think there are plenty of people who care about those issues actually. And that the way you dismiss them is not at all forward thinking. It's possible to care about a lot of different issues. [/quote]
Quote luckylavender the way you dismiss them is not at all forward thinking
So Libertaire etc (the clue is in the name presumably) falls foul of the leftie thought-police and must be re-educated? Give me strength, at least the Conservatives have always stood up for free speech.

Didn't Keir Starmer say that it's 'not right' to say that 'only women have a cervix'? And that he parrots the 'transwomen are women' mantra?

Labour's attack on single-sex spaces (KS piece to camera for PN was agony) and complete lack of ability to support Rosie Duffield and speak sense on men in women's sports and prisons means they are absolutely off limits for me.

What worse is I don't think he believes it for a second. His piece to camera for PN was not posted on any official Labour party social media that I could find which also suggests he knows it's a view which alienates voters.

Or maybe we recognise that KS just isn’t connecting with voters

Corbyn well there are many reasons why many labour voters would never vote for labour while he was leader (all be mentioned many times)

Johnson doesn’t pretend he’s a man of the people, he’s a rich toff and doesn’t try to pretend otherwise and people don’t care. Starmer just seems to be nothing, a waste of space.

The way some Labour voters moan about people voting Tory instead of asking why they aren’t voting Labour is incredible. I hear Labour voters who hate Blair intensely, how awful he was etc. ok then, carry on losing, they actually seem to be ok with that, not interested in getting into power and making a difference. Bonkers.

Margaret Beckett and Harriet Harman both led Labour briefly.

Not because they were elected leader by the party membership.

Put Dianne Abbot in charge with Angela Raynor as deputy !

In a nutshell, this sums up why people don't argue back and just vote at the ballot box - and people like you remain surprised that Labour aren't in government, and I say that as a card carrying Labour party member. The Tories are not a single issue party and dismissing them as 'evil' and getting caught up in the whole 'never kissed a Tory' type nonsense is extremely short-sighted and counter-productive. Why aren't you asking why people are voting for them?

This, in absolute spades. I’ve lost count of the amount of time I’ve seen/heard people talk about Tory/Brexit voters being scum, evil, monsters, gammon, bigots and so on. It just doesn’t seem to compute that a) people can vote differently to you but it doesn’t make them a terrible person (which is to touch on the much bigger issue of tribal politics and our increasingly divided and intolerant society) and b) political votes are not as binary as they might seem; people can vote for the same thing for entirely different reasons.

All the time the Left carries on lecturing those who have the audacity to have a “wrong” opinion, while never stopping to think about why people feel the way they do, they will be in the political wilderness.

Stop pandering to the trans lobby
Stop pandering to the extreme left and anti-semites
Stop in-fighting and blowharding between individual personalities
Stop being pushed around by the unions
Engage properly and clearly on the economy, social and healthcare and welfare

That would be a start.

I have never voted Tory and probably never will: it’s a step too far. But at the moment a vote for Labour is a waste.

@FOJN

Didn't Keir Starmer say that it's 'not right' to say that 'only women have a cervix'? And that he parrots the 'transwomen are women' mantra?

Labour's attack on single-sex spaces (KS piece to camera for PN was agony) and complete lack of ability to support Rosie Duffield and speak sense on men in women's sports and prisons means they are absolutely off limits for me.

What worse is I don't think he believes it for a second. His piece to camera for PN was not posted on any official Labour party social media that I could find which also suggests he knows it's a view which alienates voters.

And this is exactly the problem. They are terrified of being torn apart on Twitter and social media. They are tying themselves up in knots about the views of a tiny proportion of people, instead of the working class demographic they claim to want to represent.

Those people complaining about Starmer seem to want this corrupt gang to go on and on, because not so long ago they were complaining about Corbyn.

It’s entirely possible to want a left-wing government AND recognise that the current/recent leadership isn’t/wasn’t cutting it. I had high hopes of Corbyn because I liked his socialist principles. But when it came to it, he couldn’t run a bath let alone a party. I had REALLY high hopes of Starmer but he’s buggered a) because his job is trying to hold the party together which is akin to being a lion tamer armed only with a whip and a chair, and b) he’s walked straight into the quagmire of identity politics and wokery which is going to bog him down forever. Unless he comes up with a suite of decent policies, takes a firm “This is how it’s going to be, support me or fuck off” line with his own party AND ditches the woke nonsense, he's fucked.

@SickAndTiredAgain

They think that it's patronising and irritating to be viewed as 'lesser' and 'ignorant' if you did not going to university and are doing a manual minimum wage job. They think that climate change is real but being lectured by the great and the good about recycling and getting rid of their combi boilers, when said great and good are flying in private jets and taking long-haul holidays, is bloody annoying. A significant number of people in said WMC voted Tory in the last election and will probably do so again.

I do not understand how the logical conclusion of these views is to vote Tory. Do people think that Boris and co don’t look down on people in manual minimum wage jobs? People just cannot seriously think this. And did Boris not just get a private jet back from COP26 after giving a speech about how we must act now?

I was once told by my uncle, Labour stabs you in the back but the Tories stab you in the front. You know what you’re getting with the Tories, he knows they don’t give a shit about us (poor, Northern, working class) but they don’t pretend to.

I'll never vote Tory, and I like KS, but for me the incoherence on the sex-based rights of women and girls has been a major decider on cancelling my LP membership of 25 years. I like KS and don't actually think he's the problem, but the party seems to have been 'captured'. The party apparently doesn't need Blairite dinosaurs like me who might be interested in actually winning an election.

With Labour's endless navel gazing and internal fighting on issues that are meaningless to most voters, it's not a surprise the Tories can carry on doing exactly as they please.

Didn't Keir Starmer say that it's 'not right' to say that 'only women have a cervix'? And that he parrots the 'transwomen are women' mantra?

What worse is I don't think he believes it for a second.

Of course he doesn't. It would be extremely naïve to think that any man, especially any middle-aged heterosexual man, in any of the main parties does believe twaw. Would any of them have a sexual relationship with a tw? I seriously doubt it.

I don't give a monkey's how charismatic Starmer is or isn't. I care that he's a coward and at best a fence-sitter, at worst a lying hypocrite. And yes, I realise that doesn't make him unusual amongst politicians. I can't vote tory, but I refuse to vote for any party that won't admit it knows perfectly well what a woman is. I guess I'll be spoiling my ballot paper for the first time.

It’s entirely possible to want a left-wing government AND recognise that the current/recent leadership isn’t/wasn’t cutting it. I had high hopes of Corbyn because I liked his socialist principles. But when it came to it, he couldn’t run a bath let alone a party. I had REALLY high hopes of Starmer but he’s buggered a) because his job is trying to hold the party together which is akin to being a lion tamer armed only with a whip and a chair, and b) he’s walked straight into the quagmire of identity politics and wokery which is going to bog him down forever. Unless he comes up with a suite of decent policies, takes a firm “This is how it’s going to be, support me or fuck off” line with his own party AND ditches the woke nonsense, he's fucked.

I wasn't wild about Corbyn mostly because of the issues with anti-semitism; he should have taken a much stronger line on it but didn't. Had hugely high hopes of Starmer but I think your analysis is spot on.

I was once told by my uncle, Labour stabs you in the back but the Tories stab you in the front. You know what you’re getting with the Tories, he knows they don’t give a shit about us (poor, Northern, working class) but they don’t pretend to.

Exactly the view in my local WMC - you know what you are getting with the Tories!

[quote luckylavender]**@Libertaire* @BackBackBack* - I think there are plenty of people who care about those issues actually. And that the way you dismiss them is not at all forward thinking. It's possible to care about a lot of different issues. [/quote]
Yes, a lot of people do care about those issues, and most of them are middle class left wing graduates who live in London and in university towns where Labour already have strong support.
Labour’s problems are elsewhere, in places like Stoke, Mansfield, Wakefield and, of course, Hartlepool. The party’s traditional heartlands. These are the places Labour simply has to win back if they are ever to govern again and voters in those places don’t care about those issues.

They need to know woman=adult human female, put it on their manifesto and say never to self id. Apologise to the Labour women/all women for the steps they’ve taken so far to erase us and how they ignored our voice for so long.

Whilst I am naturally a lefty, in the most recent London elections I spoilt my vote as I could not bring myself to vote for Labour and Khan. They are supporting local policies which discriminate against the disabled and cause me personally a massively increased commute, thus costing me time ,money and causing more pollution. They will not listen to discussion or even consider suggestions They say they are promoting the Green agenda whilst driving round in 4x4s and refusing to engage with constituents.
I suspect that nationally it is the same.
As a woman, I have felt bottom of their agenda all my life, and that continues to be the case. In the same way that that Corbyn's cabinet couldn't understand the subtleties of anti-semitism, I feel the Labour party don't get the reality of being a woman, and how being female adversely affects lives ,opportunities and expectations. T hat's putting a polite spin on it. I'm not saying that any of the other parties get that either, but one would hope ( I certainly did) that the Labour party would want equality and fairness for all.
Disappointing that the WEA is still trying placate the menz too.

@AFS1

I know a lot of people have been turned off labour and I understand why. For me, the biggest issue is our voting system. There needs to be a left wing alliance on a single issue manifesto: to bring in proportional representation.

The Tories are only ever between 35 and 42% of the vote which means that in almost every constituency more people don’t want them than do. All left wing parties need to come together to oust the Tories. Whichever party has the strongest candidate in a constituency is the only party to field a candidate.

I don’t believe a single left wing party will beat the Tories for decades. I don’t think there’s anything Labour can do except make a pact with the LibDems, Greens, SNP, Plaid Cymru etc.

This ⤴️

@PermanentTemporary

I'd vote Labour because of Keir Starmer, he's an intelligent man with a normal amount of integrity, decisive and responsible, looks for solutions rather than parroting soundbites

What I don't understand is why nobody else seems to feel the same.

Also this. Keir has done nothing wrong except not being a showboating conman, which is apparently what the nation wants. ⤴️

@PermanentTemporary

I'd vote Labour because of Keir Starmer, he's an intelligent man with a normal amount of integrity, decisive and responsible, looks for solutions rather than parroting soundbites

What I don't understand is why nobody else seems to feel the same.

I kind of feel like this. Bring back reliable, boring, dependable, sensible politicians. Do we really need any more Boris like showboating, bullsh** from another PM? It's not a celebrity contest. Although I think the only way will be to form a cross party alliance with opposition parties and independents.

I was once told by my uncle, Labour stabs you in the back but the Tories stab you in the front. You know what you’re getting with the Tories, he knows they don’t give a shit about us (poor, Northern, working class) but they don’t pretend to.

I'm re-posting this because I think it very neatly sums up why people aren't coming together to vote for a left-wing party simply to oust the Tories.

They aren't voting Tory because they like Boris, or think he's funny, or think that his 'greatest showman' act is admirable. They are voting Tory because the Labour party has drifted so far away from what ordinary working class people are concerned about.

And I'll say it again - the perfect illustration of this is Brexit. Scores of Labour voters turned their backs and voted Tory because the Tories were the only party who - generally speaking - weren't telling these voters that they were racist idiots for voting Leave.

I'm working class and have voted Tory as the best of a bad bunch. There are plenty of things I dislike about the party and their policies, but they're not po-faced and patronising. In this thread alone we've been told that Tory voters all have blood on their hands, and that anyone who has voted Tory doesn't support 'socialist values' and so isn't wanted in Labour. Okay. I'm not a socialist and I'm not interested in dranatic hyperbole and woke identity politics so I'll keep voting Tory.

You can maintain ideological purity or you can gain mass support. If Labour want the latter, they need to become more centrist and offer up some sensible policies. The Tories have fucked up so much that the cente votes are there for the taking, and yet so many people, me included, think Labour are worse. And if Labour's response is essentially 'yes but you're thick and if you knew better you'd do what we say and vote for us' they won't be changing any minds. Brexit should have taught them that.

First labour said they would expel me (and everyone else who recognises biology), then called me a "dinosaur" and said "it's not correct to say that women have a cervix" and are now gaslighting me saying "no one's ever raised an issue" about an issue that has been repeatedly raised.

They don't actually want my vote. They don't want my support. So that's that then.

The Tories are only ever between 35 and 42% of the vote which means that in almost every constituency more people don’t want them than do. All left wing parties need to come together to oust the Tories. Whichever party has the strongest candidate in a constituency is the only party to field a candidate.

But, as explained far better by other people already on this thread, you cannot guarantee that people would vote Green, or Lib Dem just to get the Tories out. I'm not voting for a party that describes me as a "non-man". The Greens and Lib Dems are even less credible than Labour at the moment.

Voters prefer style over substance. I liked Brown, Miliband and Corbyn. Not a fan of Starmer, we need more than a haircut and a sharp suit. The rest of the shadow cabinet are just as uninspiring.