The Labour Party are unelectable. Can they turn it around? What would they need to do to gain your trust?

[flashbac]

After another week of corrupt shenanigans from the Tories (last week was allowing literal shit pumping into watercourses, this week attempting to set aside a finding of dodgy dealings) we would still be stuck with them if there was a snap election tomorrow.

The Labour brand has become far too toxic. Keir is next to useless and all of them listen to the wrong people instead of instinctively knowing what to fight for. If they can turn it around and rebuild trust it won't be a quick or easy job. They have lost all credibility.

What do they need to do to rebuild trust or is it too late?

For me they need to start with the following:

• Get a leader with charisma and strong values surrounding fairness. The current one just doesn't cut it.
• know wtf a woman is. Stop trying to erase natal women as a sex class.

What's on your wishlist for a credible alternative to the Tories?

I don't think I've seen prominent Labour frontbenchers insulting the electorate and saying people have blood on their hands if they've voted Tory.

No, but on the doorstep a lot of people are quite well informed about what their local MP, local party and local councillors are saying.

One of the things that Blair & Brown did very well, was to pull the party together and get a united message. You might not have agreed with all of their policies (and I certainly didn't) but what they did do, was recognise - and crucially, get the majority to agree with them - that it was more important to be unified on the big issues so they could get into government. As a PP has said, they didn't let perfect be the enemy of good.

I thought KS was pretty good on Marr today. I would love to rejoin the EU but accept it's not a policy they can have at the moment, and I think keeping on repeating 'Make Brexit work,' with examples of how to do so might play out well as it starts unravelling. That's just one issue, but he sounded genuinely angry, as I'm sure he is, on the corruption too.

@JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil

‘Jackie -YOU are the sneerer... can you not see that’

@Evesgarden

Like clockwork I’ve been accused of being the sneering elite which I’m far from. I see other things such as people being able to afford housing, to eat, send their kids to a decent school, afford healthcare, be able to find a police offer when they need one, be paid a living wage etc as a higher priority than whether some men want to call themselves women.

If that’s your priority that’s fine. If that makes me a sneering elite to you then that’s also fine. Notice how I’m not calling you names though…

‘Whether some men want to call themselves women’ is a flippant way to refer to an issue that has massive repercussions for women. Redefining the word woman to include men is extraordinary. It leaves women with no recourse to ask for or receive services or laws which they may need based purely on their sex. Maternity laws, single sex spaces for reasons of privacy and dignity, rape crisis centres, awards and bursaries designed to level the playing field…

Education, healthcare and the police force/ judiciary are in fact all affected by the clash between gender identity/ sex.
Police force recording male sexual offenders as women - putting them into female prison estates and massively skewering female crime statistics?
The repercussions of people being recorded as their preferred gender in the NHS and not being treated accurately according to their sex?
Men being placed on hospital wards with women despite risks to women?
Girls being disadvantaged in schools because they’re expected to now share single sex spaces and sports with boys?

These are just a few examples. The women who have raised this issue on this thread have grasped the bigger picture.

(And the reason that men don’t care that the word man has been redefined to include women - that’s because men are not disadvantaged or vulnerable due to their sex in the same way as women! It’s not because they’re fundamentally kinder than women are is it?)

‘I'm sure there are some genuine comments on here and I agree with several of them, but there are also a lot of people trying to blame LAbour for why they are going to vote for a corrupt, incompetent party that has demonstrate contempt for the electorate time and again.’

100% agreed. It’s so disingenuous as well as transparent. If you want to vote Tory, agree with what they’re are doing and the direction the country is heading in, then just own it. Supporting the current incarnation of the Conservatives is not illegal. Don’t flail around trying to find excuses as to why you have ‘no choice’ but to vote for them. Everyone can see through it.

No, but on the doorstep a lot of people are quite well informed about what their local MP, local party and local councillors are saying.

Yes, I know that. Some of their doorstep activists are a nightmare. During the 2019 election I said to one that I was torn between Labour and Anna Soubry and he launched into a tirade about how she was only in it for the money and just tried to make me feel like an idiot for even considering voting for her. It was pretty unpleasant but didn't stop me voting Labour in the end. I can see how some would be put off though. I have a friend who does door-stopping for Labour and she was a massive Corbyn fan and she was livid when I told her about that. I completely agree that the infighting needs to stop. I think KS has tried but it's obviously a massive job. Whenever Diane Abbott and McDonnell pop up you definitely get the sense they'd like to see Labour fail going forward and see it as vindicating them.

On the other hand, Johnson got unity by chucking out anyone who didn't tow the line, which isn't a good look either.

@Andante57 yes, but it's not 1788 and we don't need guillotines.

New HoC building instead of a decrepit living museum, PR, multi-party system, bin the RF, democratically elected politically neutral president and take the medieval "kingdom" out of the country's name, ask (not tell) Scotland and Ireland what they want to do. Then we might start to look like a modern democracy instead of a politically backward, corrupt little island that's never got over losing its criminal empire.

Or carry on as we are, bitching and squabbling about identities and party politics sliding further into the mire with Boris in charge for the foreseeable. Bleak future but the most likely scenario.

Keir, you need to go. You CANNOT lead Labour out of this.

Church ok but do you want this done democratically with a referendum about abolishing the Royal Family, or would you prefer a storming of the Bastille type scenario (without guillotines)?

Who will pay for the new HoC building and what will happen to the old one?

JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil Sun 07-Nov-21 02:27:38
"The fact there is a 13 page thread about Labour (yes I’m aware I’m adding to it) but nowhere near the same length of thread denouncing the actual government’s corruption says a lot."

This

@HarrietPierce

JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil Sun 07-Nov-21 02:27:38 "The fact there is a 13 page thread about Labour (yes I’m aware I’m adding to it) but nowhere near the same length of thread denouncing the actual government’s corruption says a lot."

This

I have started threads denouncing the Tories but let's face it, moaning about how shit they are isn't very constructive. Most people know how awful it is but we have no way out. What's the point of having a moan about a fact that doesn't look to be changing anytime soon? We need a credible opposition.

The Tories are literally shit (#TurdReich, #StoolBritannia), but where is the denunciation, the coherent policies, the manifesto, the articulate, intelligent politicians explaining the issues and what we're going to do about it?

We vote for these people, believing they're better informed, more intelligent and have a vision for Britain that we can believe in.

So far, we have playground insults, betrayal of core Labour principles and voters, dinosaurs who should hsve been put out to grass years ago and grey beaurocrats, trying to be the next Blair.

Starmer is trying to look statesman-like, but he's coming across as reactive and defensive, rather than proactive.

Where are the visits to constituencies?

Where are the meet and greet tours, to explain the manifesto and what Labour could do for us?

We shouldn't hsve to wait for an election.

@HarrietPierce

JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil Sun 07-Nov-21 02:27:38 "The fact there is a 13 page thread about Labour (yes I’m aware I’m adding to it) but nowhere near the same length of thread denouncing the actual government’s corruption says a lot."

This

But the purpose of this thread is to try and understand why Labour aren't trouncing a corrupt and mostly incompetent government.

We know the current Govt is corrupt. We know the impact it's having on the poorest and most disadvantaged people in this country. But every single major opinion poll still puts the Govt in the lead. Why?

Hand-wringing (and I really don't mean that in a dismissive way) achieves nothing. The party needs to stop fighting amongst itself and ask why a corrupt Govt is still electorally more attractive than Labour, because it's a damning indictment of our party right now.

@Gingernaut

The Tories are literally shit (#TurdReich, #StoolBritannia), but where is the denunciation, the coherent policies, the manifesto, the articulate, intelligent politicians explaining the issues and what we're going to do about it?

We vote for these people, believing they're better informed, more intelligent and have a vision for Britain that we can believe in.

So far, we have playground insults, betrayal of core Labour principles and voters, dinosaurs who should hsve been put out to grass years ago and grey beaurocrats, trying to be the next Blair.

Starmer is trying to look statesman-like, but he's coming across as reactive and defensive, rather than proactive.

Where are the visits to constituencies?

Where are the meet and greet tours, to explain the manifesto and what Labour could do for us?

We shouldn't hsve to wait for an election.

Agree. And crucially, where are the core manifesto policies which actually reflect what voters want to see, rather than what Party leadership think people should have.

The most common criticism I hear of Labour at the moment, is that they seem to view ordinary voters as dangerous and uneducated. That it's the voters that are somehow standing in the way of Labour's rightful place in government - and that if voters would only accept that the Party knows what's best for them, then life would be better for all concerned.

I love how the Tories are full of lying, corrupt, Eton & Bullingdon Club scumbags yet it's the Labour brand that is "toxic". What a fucked up country

Actually for some of us it's both, but I agree that the whole thing is thoroughly messed up. The sytem's going into meltdown and what's left is the self-interested scrabbling over the remains while they can

Clearly some struggle to believe that there are folk with no allegiance to one party, but there really are plenty of us out there and these are the votes which they all need to swing the balance and get power, and it's many of these who feel homeless right now

As said I'm another who believes only a split will solve things, but what beats me is where the money for a new party would come from

As a bare minimum -

• Properly fund DV shelters for women and children, and housing for them when they leave. Shelters and housing in every major town and city.

• Drop identity politics, support The Equality Act and sex based rights.
• Stop convicted sex offenders being able to change their legal gender.
• Get Stonewall out of the public sector, the NHS, prisons; return to single sex services.
• Make it easier for someone with a GRC to detransition. (Currently they have to prove they have gender dysphoria)
• Stop issuing gender recognition certificates and falsified birth certificates. They are a legal fiction that harm the rights of other people.

• Stop supporting austerity, Universal Credit, cuts to benefits - especially for disabled people, carers and respite care.
• Look at the care system and do something about the poor outcomes for young adults leaving care.
• Fucking do something about CSA, grooming gangs, sexual violence in schools and male violence generally.

• Nationalise essential services such as water, gas, electricity.
• Reintroduce council owned council housing stock, which is an asset to local councils and will reduce the flow of housing benefit to private landlords.

but what beats me is where the money for a new party would come from

Puzzled - Gina Miller is starting a new party.

Gina Miller is starting a new party

Interesting - I hadn't heard that

So again, I wonder where she's planning to get the funding from?

Clear policies about the issues that matter to me:

How they'll increase NHS worker pay
Improving access to health services
Reopen all the children's centres
Who they'll tax to pay for it
Ethics overhaul post dodgy Boris
Climate policies and funding

I’ve seen the above given as a reason to criticise Labour time and time again.It doesn't stand up to scrutiny...Labour are currently unable to have their messages amplified ‘good old Tories’ only have to threaten the EU and it’s front page and top story on tv news. Starmer wrote an article this week ‘wiping the floor’ with the Tories and it barely got any coverage.

It absolutely does stand up to scrutiny because Labour - or indeed any opposition party - has got enough political ammunition for the incumbent government to be ousted at the next election. But that almost certainly won't happen because it won't be used effectively. They just snipe from the sidelines.

And to say that Labour can't get their message out, there are other channels of communication other than the papers and big news sites. You seem to assume that the entire electorate need information spoon-fed to them; I can't speak for others but I don't and I still haven't seen anything other than empty words to make me feel that Labour in its current form would form a functional and effective government.

It would be better for ‘the left’ to stay in the wilderness for now and focus on building strong workable policies than try and court those who you believe are being ‘sneered’ at with populism and jingoism currently as we risk going down a darker and darker path.

They've had over ten years. More than an entire DECADE. How much more time do they want?

And the comments here implying that those deserting Labour are "jingoistic" (i.e. extreme patriotism implying borderline - if not actual - racism), "populist", "right wing" (because apparently being GC is synonymous with being right wing/facist, when the two viewpoints can be entirely unconnected), "enjoying being victims"...yup, that right there is the reason why the Left cannot understand why it's not elected or currently seen as electable. It stinks of a fury that anyone could be so "stupid" as to vote for a party which positions itself as representing aspiration (even if it's just a front) when here you are telling them why they're wrong. And they just won't listen to you bestowing your munificence on them and generously educating them as to why they're wrong

And the comments here implying that those deserting Labour are "jingoistic" (i.e. extreme patriotism implying borderline - if not actual - racism), "populist", "right wing" (because apparently being GC is synonymous with being right wing/facist, when the two viewpoints can be entirely unconnected), "enjoying being victims"...yup, that right there is the reason why the Left cannot understand why it's not elected or currently seen as electable. It stinks of a fury that anyone could be so "stupid" as to vote for a party which positions itself as representing aspiration (even if it's just a front) when here you are telling them why they're wrong. And they just won't listen to you bestowing your munificence on them and generously educating them as to why they're wrong

Please send this to party HQ. Absolutely sums up the issue - and it runs through the party like the pattern on a stick of rock, as evidenced by this thread!!

Labour moved away from its roots. It doesn't stand for what old Labour supporters identified with.

They called their voters racists and transposes and told women to leave their party and kicked women out for being honest about biology.

Its not that people prefer Tories its just that they dont like who represents the party.

I have had to turn the TV over a few times when I see certain Labour MPs talk. I was raised on a council estate in the North West. Labour do not represent me any more.

@SoniaFouler - I don't think MN is predominately left leaning.

@CounsellorTroi - it was also tried in 2018

Politics is a dirty business. You need to be shrewd duplicitous and in order to appeal to the masses rather charismatic.
We had a decent leader in Tony Blair and more importantly an intelligent chancellor in Browne. However the people who sold them down the river was their own backward looking party. I've lost all respect for Labour.

Out of interest, how many posters have had a look on the Labour homepage at their 'Stronger Together' manifesto? I haven't read the entire thing because there's a lot there, but there is a huge amount of detail on what they want in a range of policy areas such as the environment, jobs, housing, families etc. There are a few things mentioned that people here have said they want to see. I just don't think it's fair to say they have no ideas or haven't set anything out or all they do is moan etc. Yes, they obviously have an issue getting that message out and, while the media is to blame, they need to overcome like that like Blair managed to rather than be defeatist.

@Dinosaurwoman - doesn't look predominantly white male to me (though clearly work to be done):

labour.org.uk/people/shadow-cabinet/

Compared to:

www.gov.uk/government/ministers

The trouble is people can't be bothered to look at the facts.