The Labour Party are unelectable. Can they turn it around? What would they need to do to gain your trust?

[flashbac]

After another week of corrupt shenanigans from the Tories (last week was allowing literal shit pumping into watercourses, this week attempting to set aside a finding of dodgy dealings) we would still be stuck with them if there was a snap election tomorrow.

The Labour brand has become far too toxic. Keir is next to useless and all of them listen to the wrong people instead of instinctively knowing what to fight for. If they can turn it around and rebuild trust it won't be a quick or easy job. They have lost all credibility.

What do they need to do to rebuild trust or is it too late?

For me they need to start with the following:

• Get a leader with charisma and strong values surrounding fairness. The current one just doesn't cut it.
• know wtf a woman is. Stop trying to erase natal women as a sex class.

What's on your wishlist for a credible alternative to the Tories?

As the saying goes “the enemy of better is the best”….

“I” (generic) can’t vote Labour until they have a policy of X, Y and Z…., and stop doing A,B,C that’s non-negotiable, I’d rather spoil my vote.

In the meantime the Tories have captured enough of the vote (under FPTP) by playing the perpetual Brexit wars card to stay in power.

There are going to be many more years of Tory government if everybody is waiting for the perfect Labour or other left of Tory party to come along….

[quote SoniaFouler]@JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil
The fact there is a 13 page thread about Labour (yes I’m aware I’m adding to it) but nowhere near the same length of thread denouncing the actual government’s corruption says a lot.

Yes. Yes it does.

Tbh you could have ended your post there and it would have made far more sense than what you continued with.

Do you think 13 pages, 330 replies and 85% of YANBU votes are laying into Labour for the fun of it? Or does it give pause for thought that MN (typically left and Labour leaning) hasn’t suddenly turned right and Tory leaning in the past few years, or that this thread isn’t full of Tory bots as previously suggested by someone else, but in fact it is Labour that has gone very, very wrong and incapable of securing the votes of the public?

There are some real head-in-the-sand posts here and dismissing everything that has been said and saying “but the Tories are worse” does. not. cut. it. Really not sure how more plainly people can make it tbh. Labour can make all the promises in the world but unless it faces head on the real problems it faces with its brand, its image, its messages, its MPs, etc, it will remain in political wilderness. Thats the bottom line.[/quote]
Totally agree. It's quite disheartening to see the same old rhetoric, and people jumping in dismiss anything other than unquestioning loyalty and adoration as wrongthink. The poster upthread had it right; there are party members who are far too wedded to their purity of their ideology to ever want to sully it by governing, because being elected means being electable.

your post regarding private schools and the NC is an amazing example of current "Labour Think'. 'Pull every one backwards rather than pushing them forwards'

I am very surprised that this is your interpretation of my posts, as it's not what I have said at all. I want to see levelling up so that every child has the same opportunity of an excellent education, from a national curriculum that is high quality and fit for purpose. I'm baffled as to how that equates to wanting to pull people backwards.

Agree with PP make nonpayment of CMS a criminal offence.

Agree. It shouldn't be allowed that people - mostly male - can create children and then walk away from them, leaving the taxpayer to pick up the burden if the remaining parent (usually female) has their working opportunities constrained or eliminated because of childcare responsibilities.

There are going to be many more years of Tory government if everybody is waiting for the perfect Labour or other left of Tory party to come along….

It’s not “everybody’s” job to wait and change their minds, stance or votes though, that’s (literally) the job of the party that wants power.

My conclusion is that many of those who feel ‘sneered’ at a perfectly happy to be regular food bank attendees infected with long Covid if there’s a chance they’ll hear less foreign accents of see less non white people in their town. That’s why they will support Torys until they can’t afford school shoes or to heat their homes. It’s not about the latte drinking metropolitan elite looking hurting their feelings at all. It’s about nationalism and racism of many older voters

Jesus @JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil YOU are the reason people are turning away from Labour. Bloody hell what a view to have of people. I left Labour because of the views such as male rapists should be housed with vulnerable women in prison, Men can magically change in to women, accused of being transphobic by a party my entire family had supported for generations. - but now (according to you) I am racist too.

Voters generally dont like being called names.

@Jackie YOU are the sneerer... can you not see that.

@WinoAnon

If you can vote for Tory as an alternative then you don't stand for labour values. Spoil your ballot or don't vote by all means but Tories stand for everything that socialism is against. I have never understood floating voters between these two parties, they are chalk and cheese.

Could not agree more with this

@notimagain

As the saying goes “the enemy of better is the best”….

“I” (generic) can’t vote Labour until they have a policy of X, Y and Z…., and stop doing A,B,C that’s non-negotiable, I’d rather spoil my vote.

In the meantime the Tories have captured enough of the vote (under FPTP) by playing the perpetual Brexit wars card to stay in power.

There are going to be many more years of Tory government if everybody is waiting for the perfect Labour or other left of Tory party to come along….

Totally agree which is why I still grudgingly vote Labour however it is not enough. Labour need to inspire people with a positive vision.

@RoseAddict

The need to realise the two party first past the post system isn’t going to get them elected and they need to form a progressive alliance and bring in PR.

Totally agree

Or does it give pause for thought that MN (typically left and Labour leaning) hasn’t suddenly turned right and Tory leaning in the past few years, or that this thread isn’t full of Tory bots as previously suggested by someone else, but in fact it is Labour that has gone very, very wrong and incapable of securing the votes of the public?

If you think MN us typically left you must be to the political right of a certain German chancellor, MN is becoming Parler with pearls amd as more and more of the anti-woke brigade join it shifts further and further right, some of the toxicity on threads about race, immigration, trans and welfare make certain you know which political side a lot of MN posters fall, trotting out little slogans you see in other right wing forums and media

The Tories talk about re examining the human rights act and theres barely a whisper on MN about it the removal of UC uplift, which affects women heavily according to research, was met on the whole with it was only meant to be temporary and on a threads about IB protesters a lot of posters would have brought back capital punishment, MN left wing, cool story bro

I wish Momentum would grow a pair and create their own party, Labour might then be brave enough to move more centralist and have some chance of actually getting elected.

Well people trot (pardon the pun) out Momentum it seems there perception of it comes from poorly researched right wing media articles, they dont and have never had any MPs and arent part of the Labour party, just an affiliation in the same way the Fabians are, never see much hate trotted out about them by the shockingly right wing media of this country and Im sure it has nothing to do with the redistribution of wealth and the Levenson II implementation.

MN will tell you anything left of Nigel Farrage and its hard left and seems to mirror the cries of socialism in the US if there is as much of a whiff of helping poorer people gain equality. The overton window has shifted so far to the right in this country that we voted in a right wing populist authoritarian government.

Cries of cant vote for a party whos deputy leader called out scummy behaviour as scummy, we can use language like piccannies with watermelon smiles, tank topped bum boys and those wearing a burkha as looking like bank robbers and letter boxes but thats completely fine

@JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil. ‘It would be better for the left to stay in the wilderness for now’ For now!! The ‘left’ have been in the wilderness for years and will be for years to come. Absolutely proving how you’re not bothered about improving people’s lives by getting into power but just want Labour to be like a sad little student debating society.

You’re the problem and the reason many voters feel that actually Labour looks down its nose at them.

@JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil. So Labour are losing because anyone who doesn't vote for them is stupid and racist

I'm a social worker, a remainer and consider myself naturally left leaning.

At this point though I'll be voting for whichever local candidate can be bothered to knock on my door, talk to me about local concerns, not tell me i'm not welcome in their party because I know what a woman is, give me good reasons about why I should be voting for them and not a load of guff about why the other parties are bad.

That pretty much rules out everyone except the Tory candidate and the independent candidate locally for me. Which is a shame.

‘Jackie -YOU are the sneerer... can you not see that’

@Evesgarden

Like clockwork I’ve been accused of being the sneering elite which I’m far from. I see other things such as people being able to afford housing, to eat, send their kids to a decent school, afford healthcare, be able to find a police offer when they need one, be paid a living wage etc as a higher priority than whether some men want to call themselves women.

If that’s your priority that’s fine. If that makes me a sneering elite to you then that’s also fine. Notice how I’m not calling you names though…

[quote HanukahMatata]@flashbac
Agree re Angela Raynor. Not my favourite but don't think she's done anythign so egregious to have all this hate.[/quote]
I agree with this - it does seem to be founded in sexism and something rarely mentioned - discrimination against anyone without a Southern English or RP (same thing) accent.

I would love it if the Tories were beaten in the next election.

All the votes against the Tories, if for one opposition party, would get the Tories out.

However, with Labour, SNP, LibDems and a variety of other different parties, the votes are scattered, so no one party gets the votes needed to get into power.

Blair's New Labour had learned from and built on Kinnock's fight with Militant and capitalised on the sleaze covering the Tories.

Cash for questions, Cecil Parkinson, his affair with Sara Keays and his awful treatment of her after the birth of their SEN daughter, David Mellor, his Chelsea football strip and Antonia De Sanchez and John Selwyn-Gummer feeding a hamburger to his kid during the BSE crisis were all fodder for Labour.

Labour's last term in office is still in living memory - PFI is going to haunt them for decades, especially with some of the shoddy building works that are coming to light, the foot and mouth crisis which decimated tourism and the Northern farmers who were worst affected, charging tuition fees and failing to live up to the initial promise will all affect the voters.

Labour proved it's no better than the Tories, the LibDems bit the Tories' arm off at the chance to 'share' power and other parties are simply not in the running.

Allow females to exist freely with the rights they fought so hard for

@JustAnotherPoster00

Or does it give pause for thought that MN (typically left and Labour leaning) hasn’t suddenly turned right and Tory leaning in the past few years, or that this thread isn’t full of Tory bots as previously suggested by someone else, but in fact it is Labour that has gone very, very wrong and incapable of securing the votes of the public?

If you think MN us typically left you must be to the political right of a certain German chancellor, MN is becoming Parler with pearls amd as more and more of the anti-woke brigade join it shifts further and further right, some of the toxicity on threads about race, immigration, trans and welfare make certain you know which political side a lot of MN posters fall, trotting out little slogans you see in other right wing forums and media

The Tories talk about re examining the human rights act and theres barely a whisper on MN about it the removal of UC uplift, which affects women heavily according to research, was met on the whole with it was only meant to be temporary and on a threads about IB protesters a lot of posters would have brought back capital punishment, MN left wing, cool story bro

I wish Momentum would grow a pair and create their own party, Labour might then be brave enough to move more centralist and have some chance of actually getting elected.

Well people trot (pardon the pun) out Momentum it seems there perception of it comes from poorly researched right wing media articles, they dont and have never had any MPs and arent part of the Labour party, just an affiliation in the same way the Fabians are, never see much hate trotted out about them by the shockingly right wing media of this country and Im sure it has nothing to do with the redistribution of wealth and the Levenson II implementation.

MN will tell you anything left of Nigel Farrage and its hard left and seems to mirror the cries of socialism in the US if there is as much of a whiff of helping poorer people gain equality. The overton window has shifted so far to the right in this country that we voted in a right wing populist authoritarian government.

Cries of cant vote for a party whos deputy leader called out scummy behaviour as scummy, we can use language like piccannies with watermelon smiles, tank topped bum boys and those wearing a burkha as looking like bank robbers and letter boxes but thats completely fine

I am inclined to agree that MN has shifted more to the right these days however that doesn't mean the responses in this thread should be disregarded. Yes, the Overton window has shifted and we are in a shit place but what is Labour going to do about it? We need to be constructive and not just dismiss those who voted Tory/spoiled ballot/didn't bother to vote.

@JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil
If you think MN us typically left you must be to the political right of a certain German chancellor, MN is becoming Parler with pearls amd as more and more of the anti-woke brigade join it shifts further and further right, some of the toxicity on threads about race, immigration, trans and welfare make certain you know which political side a lot of MN posters fall, trotting out little slogans you see in other right wing forums and media

I had to look up Parker as I didn’t know what it was. And I read:

Parler (/ˈpɑːrlər/) is an American microblogging and social networking service. It has a significant user base of Donald Trump supporters, conservatives, conspiracy theorists, and far-right extremists. Posts on the service often contain far-right content, antisemitism, and conspiracy theories such as QAnon.

You are seriously suggesting that MN is like the above? Seriously???? You’re beyond help.

but what is Labour going to do about it?

Wait it out unfortunately, I'm a benefit scrounger so you have no idea how much that fills me with fear but with a sycophantic partisan right wing media there really is nothing they can do

You are seriously suggesting that MN is like the above? Seriously???? You’re beyond help.

Some of the posts Ive seen on here which do get taken down but they were still posted in the first place would belong on Parler

Cries of cant vote for a party whos deputy leader called out scummy behaviour as scummy, we can use language like piccannies with watermelon smiles, tank topped bum boys and those wearing a burkha as looking like bank robbers and letter boxes but thats completely fine

@JustAnotherPoster00 That is a completely inaccurate re-telling of what has actually been said on here. There isn't a single post on this thread that agrees with those words that BJ has said in the past. You are seizing on a comment and manipulating it to suit your argument, having taken it out of the context in which it was posted - which was that people do not like being looked down upon for exercising their democratic right to vote for a party of their choice.

Angela Rayner didn't say that every Tory voter was scum, but by calling the Tories 'scum' it puts the back up of every person who has voted Tory - it's a simple fact. By criticising the party that people voted for, the voters themselves are being tacitly judged. The left has a very nasty and entrenched habit of trying to shame people into voting for them - and this has never been so prevalent as now.

I really don't understand why some party members seem determined to try and shame people into voting Labour, and that this is somehow better than having policies and leadership that make people want to vote Labour. Do you honestly think that it's a credible argument to say to people "vote for us because if you don't you are racist"?

If you can vote for Tory as an alternative then you don't stand for labour values. Spoil your ballot or don't vote by all means but Tories stand for everything that socialism is against. I have never understood floating voters between these two parties, they are chalk and cheese.

@WinoAnon This goes to the heart of why Labour is currently not a credible opposition. If the party does not willingly try to understand why voters can and do float between the two parties, then they are unlikely to ever be elected. It's almost as if the party doesn't want the votes of people that don't fully meet its ideological criteria! And consider the current Labour values and why previously left-leaning / left-open people might have backed away; that women don't have cervixes and it's "wrong" to say otherwise?

And I'll give two examples based on the above, which have come directly from door knocking and talking to people. I am in a red wall leave voting area but have also been to former red wall areas that changed hands at the last election.

Immigration. People really do not like being told that they are racist for wanting to talk about immigration controls. Doubtless there will be people within that group who are racist, but it's lazy and inaccurate and wrong to label anyone 'racist' for being concerned about immigration. Very common examples were the language burden on local services - schools, doctors, law enforcement - lack of integration into the community, crime, culture clashes and some attitudes towards white women and girls, 'ghettoisation' of certain streets or areas (which leads back to the integration point). Did I meet some people with racist views? Yes. I also met many ordinary people who almost universally used the same few words 'I feel like I am not allowed to talk about this'.

Brexit. There were huge numbers of people who voted Leave, and who felt utterly abandoned by the party - as well as patronised and dismissed - because they voted leave and were made to feel that they were ignorant because of it. A surprisingly large number of remain voters that I talked to were extremely concerned about attempts to try and 're-run' the referendum. In my opinion Brexit is the single most illustrative point of where Labour has failed, because so many of the party's heartlands and core demographic voted Tory because they felt it was the only way the democratic result would be observed.

Angela Rayner didn't criticise the Tories when she called them 'scum', she insulted them.

We know they're scum sweetheart, but what are you going to do about it?

If she had articulated why they were unfit to govern, what Labour were going to do when they get into power and how they were going to get people to vote for them, that would have worked.

@JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil

‘Jackie -YOU are the sneerer... can you not see that’

@Evesgarden

Like clockwork I’ve been accused of being the sneering elite which I’m far from. I see other things such as people being able to afford housing, to eat, send their kids to a decent school, afford healthcare, be able to find a police offer when they need one, be paid a living wage etc as a higher priority than whether some men want to call themselves women.

If that’s your priority that’s fine. If that makes me a sneering elite to you then that’s also fine. Notice how I’m not calling you names though…

I dont think your anything to do with elite @JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil - you are the one that keeps branding yourself as that.

I just think its as simple as sneering and calling people names if they dont think like you. Which is labours biggest problem at the moment.

Wow - yet another thread all about how shit Labour are while the Tories wreck the country for its citizens and trash its international reputation. They are literally dismantling our democracy but some people think 'Labour aren't exactly as I'd like them to be so I'll still vote Tory.' I just don't get it. Some people here have listed personal wish lists - that's not how politics works. Fair enough to those who say they aren't impressed with Labour and are looking for someone else/are politically homeless, but those who say they're voting Tory - I just don't get it. The scandals and the incompetence streaming from the Tory benches could be listed forever yet we get endless posts about Raynor's 'scum' comment. Meanwhile, the Tories are literally laughing at people. The poster who said about their uncle saying Tories stab you in the front, well, that may have been true once, but this lot are the exact opposite. A pointless soundbite 'levelling up' is endlessly parroted while everything they actually DO, starting with Brexit, makes people's lives appreciably worse, and we've barely seen the start of it yet.

I think Corbyn did masses of damage and also Brexit - and of course the two are related as he had a troubled view on it. Brexit was and is a right-wing project that was sold as a lie to 'ordinary' people in certain areas and it has done untold damage to the left, which was obviously part of its purpose. Labour had core voters who were in favour, but also a different core, the so-called champagne socialists/metropolitan elites, who were against. And Labour never managed to reconcile the opposing camps and that continues to be a problem. Now, as the horrendous impact of Brexit becomes clear, they still can't speak out it seems. So we have the GFA at risk, a trade war with France bubbling, empty shelves at supermarkets, and still they can't really come out and say 'Brexit is a disaster' as they will be accused of betrayal.

I broadly like KS but he's been a disappointment, not least in terms of the TWAW issue, and I agree they need someone exceptional like Blair in terms of talent who can come and unite them and create a vision that creates hope for people. It's true that Labour leaders have to work 10 times harder than Tories though, no doubt of that.

I'm sure there are some genuine comments on here and I agree with several of them, but there are also a lot of people trying to blame LAbour for why they are going to vote for a corrupt, incompetent party that has demonstrate contempt for the electorate time and again. Also, some people seem to conflate the Labour leadership with activists on Twitter or wherever - I mean, leaving the 'scum' comment aside, I don't think I've seen prominent Labour frontbenchers insulting the electorate and saying people have blood on their hands if they've voted Tory. Saying you won't vote Labour because you don't like sOME of their supporters, especially when the country's in the state it's in, is odd, imo, very odd.

I've voted Labour every election - quite like Keir and think the likes of Rachel Reeves, Lisa Nandy and Bridget Phillipson are seriously impressive. But the lack of understanding about why women are upset that language that they use about themselves is being erased is seriously concerning.
The constant stream of episodes of male violence against women on the news illustrate why we need a language to talk about ourselves and our needs, without being called transphobic
I simply don't understand whatLabour think they are achieving by potentially alienating half the population.
Honestly can't vote for them right now.