The Labour Party are unelectable. Can they turn it around? What would they need to do to gain your trust?

[flashbac]

After another week of corrupt shenanigans from the Tories (last week was allowing literal shit pumping into watercourses, this week attempting to set aside a finding of dodgy dealings) we would still be stuck with them if there was a snap election tomorrow.

The Labour brand has become far too toxic. Keir is next to useless and all of them listen to the wrong people instead of instinctively knowing what to fight for. If they can turn it around and rebuild trust it won't be a quick or easy job. They have lost all credibility.

What do they need to do to rebuild trust or is it too late?

For me they need to start with the following:

• Get a leader with charisma and strong values surrounding fairness. The current one just doesn't cut it.
• know wtf a woman is. Stop trying to erase natal women as a sex class.

What's on your wishlist for a credible alternative to the Tories?

@StrychnineInTheSandwiches

I actually think the Labour party is too tainted now and needs to be completely reborn 'New Labour' style. Although ironically it is my opinion that Brown's 'bigot' comment was the beginning of the end for Labour as we know it.

This is an example of the embarrassing shit I've seen so much of. The Tories are dismantling democracy as we know it and useful idiots like this person focus on how Labour is the tainted party.

No wonder England is in such a mess.

I agree the country is a mess but Labour are not able to save us from this shitshow. We need to discuss WHY.

@Ilovegreentomatoes

I don't get the hate for Angela raynor?

I think it's rooted in misogyny tbh.

Agree @EdgeOfACoin

If I had to be on the doorsteps for Labour I would say that a really positive thing about the party is that they have policy fights in public. The lib dems have said that anyone who questions one particular policy will be thrown out. The Tories will do anything to prevent Owen Paterson's egregious corruption from having consequences. Labour will scrap about policy. Which would you rather have?

Labour's been in power for just 21 of those years, so on that basis you seem to be right

That is at least partly due to our rubbish electoral system though. Labour tends to pile up votes in cities where they don't count. The Tory vote is spread out more widely so even if the absolute numbers voting are not all that different the pattern of votes gives them the majority.

@JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil
The fact there is a 13 page thread about Labour (yes I’m aware I’m adding to it) but nowhere near the same length of thread denouncing the actual government’s corruption says a lot.

Yes. Yes it does.

Tbh you could have ended your post there and it would have made far more sense than what you continued with.

Do you think 13 pages, 330 replies and 85% of YANBU votes are laying into Labour for the fun of it? Or does it give pause for thought that MN (typically left and Labour leaning) hasn’t suddenly turned right and Tory leaning in the past few years, or that this thread isn’t full of Tory bots as previously suggested by someone else, but in fact it is Labour that has gone very, very wrong and incapable of securing the votes of the public?

There are some real head-in-the-sand posts here and dismissing everything that has been said and saying “but the Tories are worse” does. not. cut. it. Really not sure how more plainly people can make it tbh. Labour can make all the promises in the world but unless it faces head on the real problems it faces with its brand, its image, its messages, its MPs, etc, it will remain in political wilderness. Thats the bottom line.

@flashbac
Agree re Angela Raynor. Not my favourite but don't think she's done anythign so egregious to have all this hate.

@JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil
The fact there is a 13 page thread about Labour (yes I’m aware I’m adding to it) but nowhere near the same length of thread denouncing the actual government’s corruption says a lot.

Yes, it does say a lot but not the reason you seem to think, which appears to be that you think people care more about bashing Labour than recognising Tory sleaze, self-serving greed and ineptitude.

It’s BECAUSE we recognise the Tory sleaze, self-serving greed and ineptitude that we want to see an effective Labour opposition who will stand up to all that and eventually oust the Tories. But frustratingly that just isn’t happening, despite a situation where Labour ought to be wiping the floor with them. THAT’S what this thread is about.

@StrychnineInTheSandwiches

Gimme a break. The Annabels and Ruperts always fall in line and vote Tory.

So? What about all the other people who WOULDN’T ordinarily vote Tory but who are doing so because they feel there’s no alternative? All the time that the Left sneers at those who vote “wrongly” rather than thinking about why dyed-in-the-wool Labour voters are deserting in droves and/or what it is about Labour that is politically unattractive then yes, they will be in the wilderness.

To me the Labour party name is so tarnished now (from Blair Govt onwards), some of the more able MPs (and maybe any Tories with a conscience?) would do well to form a completely new party. I might vote.

This was tried in the 80s with the SDP. It didn’t work then and there’s no reason to think it would now.

Practical solutions to every day problems.
They need to learn that money doesn’t grow on trees.
Be honest even if it’s difficult.
Stability- that’s what people want in uncertain times.

No promising moon on a stick “if only you vote for us” . So many areas need to be improved- healthcare,education,infrastructure,housing.
All require long term planning and action, not just empty promises.

Oh,and no squandering public money.

people pretend it's because of the 'scum' thing but they really hate her because she was a teenage mum. A huge chunk of the electorate are in thrall to people they see as being their 'betters' i.e the public school brigade. There's no way Johnson, Mogg et al would be where they are without their plummy accents and a depressing number of people think if you're posh you must know best so they doff their caps and vote them in.

I don’t think it’s deference. People are aspirational. The teenage mum thing would work in the Tories. It would be “look at Angela, anyone in Britain can achieve the money and status they deserve”.
In the Labour Party its still about her life as a teenage mum and she mostly known for calling her opposite numbers scum amongst other pretty vile insults. Who wants bitterness to be the face of politics?
She’s a 41 year old MP and should be out there cutting a swath through policy, not smoking out the back waiting to trip up any passing Tory.

‘But frustratingly that just isn’t happening, despite a situation where Labour ought to be wiping the floor with them. THAT’S what this thread is about.’

@BrightYellowDaffodil - I’ve seen the above given as a reason to criticise Labour time and time again.It doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Even if Starmer announced the best policies of all time whilst accurately slating the Tories on an hourly basis, we’d barely hear about it. It would be covered in the Mirror and Guardian but that’s about it. It wouldn’t make the tv news or if so they would slip in a reminder about something which went wrong under Corbyn to undermine the message. It would also be ignored by the papers with the largest readership.

Labour are currently unable to have their messages amplified ‘good old Tories’ only have to threaten the EU and it’s front page and top story on tv news. Starmer wrote an article this week ‘wiping the floor’ with the Tories and it barely got any coverage.

I won’t vote for them until they drop their plans for self-ID of gender, and until they learn what a woman is.

As a party I believe they are institutionally misogynistic. So I’m not holding my breath.

I don't agree with everything Keir Stammer says but I believe he has integrity and is honest, I did not vote for Jeremey Corbyn as I disagreed with him far too much and felt him too radical, I would not vote for Angel Rayner. I was a huge supporter (and still am a fan) of Tony Blair, I think Gordon Brown had integrity so voted for him, my concerns that Boris Johnson has no integrity.

@JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil

Labour are currently unable to have their messages amplified ‘good old Tories’ only have to threaten the EU and it’s front page and top story on tv news

Very much agree on that point …..there’s much more to the apparently permanent disagreement with “Brussels”/The EU/France/Macron than a difference in foreign policy or trade policy..

The appearance of being in a perpetual war with foreigners plays well with a sizable portion of the electorate….

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/06/tories-big-idea-for-staying-in-power-endless-conflict-with-the-eu

I won't vote for them until they drop Self-ID.

No, I don't think they are electable. But then, I'm old enough to remember when Thatcher was leading the country, and Michael Foot was ineffectually flailing about. I couldn't see how Labour would get into power. Ditto when the Tories were hopeless in the Blair years.

I think an big problem is evidenced in this thread. A constant stream of personal attacks on Tory voters. Not a vote winner. IMO rightwingers vote with their head and leftwingers with their heart. And if you believe something in your heart it's very difficult to accept anyone else's POV. Rightwingers can and are wrong about many things, but if you believe in something through rational thought, you usually have the ability to see others' POV.

I dislike Angela Rayner. Not because she's a single mum (who cares?) but because she is profoundly stupid and is in place as a token Northern woman. Does anyone seriously believe that she has the calibre to help lead the country?

@MLMshouldbeillegal

Split into two.

Allow your Rayners, Abbots and the Union leaders, and the rest of the Corbynistas to form their own party and call themselves Socialist Labour or whatever.

The more centrist party members like your Coopers, Starmers and other Blair-ites separate off and call themselves something else.

Those of us who voted for Blair in 1997 are never in a MILLION YEARS going to vote for a gobshite like Rayner. Or for a party which is totally in bed with the unions.

Only way forward is to split.

I agree with this but neither side would agree to lose the labour name.

The simple fact is Labour don't want the same thing as the votes want.

Judging by the last election and recent polls they want

1. Brexit
2. Immigration controls
3. Less benefits.

They also don't appear to be that worried about the arse-clowns currently supplying it.

I wish Momentum would grow a pair and create their own party, Labour might then be brave enough to move more centralist and have some chance of actually getting elected.

@BackBackBack your post regarding private schools and the NC is an amazing example of current "Labour Think'.

'Pull every one backwards rather than pushing them forwards'

It always makes me chuckle when some Labour voters express these opinions when a hell of a lot of the prominent Labour MPs kids have been enjoying private education also

‘All the time that the Left sneers at those who vote “wrongly” rather than thinking about why dyed-in-the-wool Labour voters are deserting in droves and/or what it is about Labour that is politically unattractive then yes, they will be in the wilderness.’

It would be better for ‘the left’ to stay in the wilderness for now and focus on building strong workable policies than try and court those who you believe are being ‘sneered’ at with populism and jingoism currently as we risk going down a darker and darker path.

When the current government started to go down this path I had some sympathy for those being ‘sneered’ at. However, after a while if you keep voting against your own interests then I have to wonder why?

My conclusion is that many of those who feel ‘sneered’ at a perfectly happy to be regular food bank attendees infected with long Covid if there’s a chance they’ll hear less foreign accents of see less non white people in their town. That’s why they will support Torys until they can’t afford school shoes or to heat their homes. It’s not about the latte drinking metropolitan elite looking hurting their feelings at all. It’s about nationalism and racism of many older voters.

The ‘left’ ( I personally don’t believe the main parties can be defined as classically ‘right’ or ‘left’ wing anymore) should focus on developing policies which help working age and younger voters whilst giving them realistic hope. They can do all this without wrapping themselves in flags and having constant arguments with the EU. They should not get sucked into culture war nonsense to appease those who feel ‘sneered’ at, many of whom just wish to go back to a time when they could feel openly superior to others.

I’m certain I will be dismissed as the ‘elite’ now, more elite than even Johnson, Paterson and Rees-Mogg. However, I don’t believe I’m alone in my views and in fact I think if Labour could develop a great policy which couldn’t be ignored by the media then they could win. Many more people are against the current Tory government than with them. They need to be given a reason to turn up to vote. The current Torys aren’t as popular as it appears. They just have strong media support and their base will always turn out to vote.

I’ve criticised Starmer for being ineffectual, however, he’s finding his feet.

Agree that it might help if the left of thr party split off & then Labour could move to centre left ground.

Keir wouldn’t have to devote all his time & energy to holding things together.

If he spoke up more, I think they’d do a lot better, as he does come across as decent, reasonable & having integrity. a
Angela Raynor is unhelpful.

I’m always surprised that it’s the Tories who have a diverse cabinet.
For example a Hindu chancellor of the exchequer, who is happy to share pictures of himself performing religious rituals on the steps of 11 Downing Sreet, And two women leaders.
Labour by comparison seems to be very white and male.

Labour needs to get rid of Momentum, they should really become a party on its own. Stop the infighting. Get a proper party structure in place which can deselect corrupt and destructive members. The labour mayor of Liverpool had his nose in the trough so it’s not just theTories at it.

And of course get rid of Stonewall. what they have allowed to happen with TWAW is as bad as any Tory cronyism. And have a look at what other pressure groups that may have a grip on the party.there must be other unsavoury hangers on as well.

Agree with PP make nonpayment of CMS a criminal offence.
So support women
Get rid of TWAW nonsense.
Get rid of Stonewall
Get rid of Momentum
Address the antisemitism
Have a diverse membership and shadow cabinet.

Just not be conservative. I’ll be voting Labour no matter what.

Those of us who voted for Blair in 1997 are never in a MILLION YEARS going to vote for a gobshite like Rayner. Or for a party which is totally in bed with the unions

Only way forward is to split

This with bells on. They absolutely do need to split

The need to realise the two party first past the post system isn’t going to get them elected and they need to form a progressive alliance and bring in PR.