Can my employer ban me from the office?

[Anothercovidthread]

NC.
I have recently started a new job. It is a non customer facing office job, based in Scotland. The company is very large. I have been working from home since I began the job due to covid restrictions. Today, we were told that we will return to the office towards the end of the month and going forwards we will do 3 days in, and 2 days from home. However, to enter the office, you must show proof of having had 2 covid vaccines. My employer will not store details of who has been vaccinated, you just need to show the info to enter. If you have not had the vaccine you are not allowed in the office unless special circumstances and permissions are agreed directly with HR.

I'm still in probation so very concerned about kicking up a fuss but I think this is very wrong.

1. Why should I have to share medical information with reception staff on a daily basis for the foreseeable?
2. Can the company legally ban people from the office for not having a non mandatory vaccine?
3. Assuming that if you have some kind of non vax agreement with HR, you are provided with some other documentation allowing entry to the office, is the company allowed to insist that its shown on a daily basis to whoever is on reception?

AIBU, the employer is just taking steps to keep people safe?

Your employer has a duty of care to all their staff They have made the decision that this is the best way to meet that duty.
There are a lot of people who will want to work for a company like this and who have no issue with this decision

@KalvinPhillipsManBun

I am shocked how many people just allow your freedom and rights to be taken away so easily without fighting it. You never have to provide proof ever, your medical records are private and confidential, say no and threaten legal action for it.

Maybe lots of people understand the benefits of a mass vaccination program for public health and are delighted that medical breakthroughs allow us to resume normal-ish lives.

1. Because for the company to keep a list would likely breach GDPR very easily. Showing your proof every day is similar to showing a vaccine passport to go to the theatre or get on a plane.

1. Your employer can put whatever conditions they like on the entry requirements for their office. We must wear masks, constantly and failure to do so is a disciplinary offence - there are no exemptions.

1. Yes, you'd have to show whatever occupational health provided you with every day in a similar way lots of companies require everyone to show an ID pass every time they enter and exit the office.

The Scotland covid app shows a QR code and the time, that's it. It doesn't even show your name unless you press a button.

If there is a medical reason for not having it you will just receive an exemption card surely

Its not that simple. It's almost impossible to get declared medically exempt.

Well, the thing is that whether they should or they shouldn't is irrelevant. They are. Legally they can. They will continue to do so.
You could get a hundred yanbus on here and it won't change your situation and the options available to you.

What you want to be the situation is not an option that is available to you. You have to choose between the options that are.

Get vaccinated and show your proof.

Stay unvaccinated and don't go into the office and probably not pass your probationary period and look for a job that doesn't require proof of vaccination.

Whether it's fair or not is irrelevant. It's not discriminatory against anyone with a protected characteristic because of that protected characteristic and so "It's not fair" is not an argument that wins you anything much past childhood.

You could always campaign for change of course. Petitions, marches, etc. You have the absolute right to do that. Just not the right to get what you want, but there's no harm trying if you feel so strongly.

It's not your medical record. It's a date of vaccine and batch number. Not your whole medical history! You'd have to show it to fly out, almost every venue if abroad, and probably in time more places here.

Just in the medical exemption issue, in New Zealand they have calculated that there are less than 100 people out of a population who will be medically exempt. There will be people who have to delay getting the vaccine due to having other medical treatment but they can eventually.
So there are very very few people who will be medically exempt

@Anothercovidthread - @boredzelda that makes some sort of sense. My employer is not in the health care industry though, we don't have clients visiting and my team and I perform a non critical function. It wouldn't be ideal if the whole team came down with covid but it wouldn't be catastrophic. Showing a covid certificate wouldn't guarantee that the team wouldn't come down with covid either way though.

You have no idea how 'catastrophic' it would be for some of your team (or their families) to come down with Covid. Shame on your employer for wanting to keep their employees safe. You're being really difficult. If you travelled to a country that needed a yellow fever vaccine for example, this is exactly what you would do. It's hardly mega sensitive medical information.

The card with details that you need to show only states that you've had both doses.
I'm not sure it's classed as medical information.
Perhaps just like showing your ID badge? I doubt very much that reception staff will be in the slightest bit bothered about who is / isn't (beyond checking people in).

If you're vaccinated, it's not a problem? Ultimately as much as you disagree with it, you'll place yourself in a position where you are having to choose whether to work (there) or not. If you look for other employment, you may encounter similar issues. Can you afford not to work ?

I think your post has been misinterpreted & I understand what you are trying to say. They seem to have given little consideration to alternative ways of achieving.

Do you know if anyone else has raised concerns ?

The team could equally come down with it if vaccinated though? The vaccines don't seem to be preventing transmission all that well although obviously the lower hospitalisations are good.

@MaxNormal

If there is a medical reason for not having it you will just receive an exemption card surely

Its not that simple. It's almost impossible to get declared medically exempt.

Is that not because lots of people aren't actually exempt, they just don't want it.

www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y

See here. Some effect on transmission but the advantage only lasts around three months.

@anon12345678901 not necessarily. I've had to get a letter from my consultant as my gps hands were tied and that STILL doesn't guarantee me exemption, its still an ongoing process despite my consultant explicitly stating I must not have it.

If you have to go back to the office, don't you want to have vaccinated colleagues around you? Minimises your chance of catching Covid.

It's a two-way street. Your colleagues have to put up with this too, to keep you safe as well. It's not about you doing them a favour and getting nothing back.

TBH, if you were against complying with a measure brought in to keep your team safe, and you were still in probation, I'd be looking more closely at whether you were a team player.

If you're not medically exempt because of a disability (and you haven't informed HR of that disability), I don't see how this will end well for you.

I guess you are not vaccinated them. What sort of information are you worried about sharing? You already shared lots of personal information when you get employed. Also with systems, nothing is private anymore, there cameras everywhere, etc.

The world is changing you need to adapt.

You are in probation period, you are really jeopardizing your job and your future employment.

@MaxNormal

You may also care about personal freedom and other rights. Not just Covid

That's where I am. Covid will pass. The question is what sort of society will we be left with afterwards?

I'm also fanatical about informed consent for any medical intervention, as I have been permanently injured from a prescription drug.

It’s a good question. And an easy one to answer. Have UK governments ever restricted personal freedoms in the past because that would be the place to look.

The answer is of course yes they did restrict freedom in the past. In circumstances that fit with international human rights charters, war and public health crisis. Once the crisis was over the UK government removed them.

It’s the reason we don’t have ID in the UK. We are a very liberal country.

Yes we have to be vigil. But there isn’t cause for concern. Public health restrictions have been lifted pretty sharpish thus far. Probably too quickly. And imposed to slowly.

In France we have to show our vaccinations via the app multiple times a day. All restaurants, museums, public spaces check them. It's only the vaccine not any other medical info. It's not a big deal unless you forget.

I haven't rtft but I don't like these COVID passes and the idea that some people may lose their jobs for not having the vaccine. Source: my opinion.

Sadly the employer can act in this way, however, I do not think their behaviour is ethical. The government has made vaccines a choice, they are not mandating it for any group as yet, nor is it a condition of entry anywhere.

It wouldn't be ideal if the whole team came down with covid but it wouldn't be catastrophic.

I dunno, if someone ends up in intensive care (which does still happen) that sounds pretty catastrophic to me. As does two weeks plus of work being lost to self isolation and illness, and all the disruption that would cause to both the business and people’s lives. You have no idea what people have going on beside their work - we can’t all just lock ourselves away for 10 days without serious repercussions you know.

@MaxNormal

I'm quite shocked at the majority of the replied, although it is AIBU so I suppose people will mostly want to be contrary and stick the boot in. Possibly a lot of Australians posting where this stuff is normalised now?

I know the term "slippery slope" is being overused a lot but that is exactly what this is. Denying people employment on the basis of a medical intervention is a pretty big departure from what we were as a society in 2019, and having to show proof of said medical employment to gain access to services likewise.

If it becomes a permanent feature, I very much doubt it will stop at covid and at some point all the people pouring scorn on the OP will come up against something that they don't like or that effects them personally.

I used to read and watch quite a lot of dystopian sci-fi and this gives me a very uncomfortable feeling.

Also everyone saying "just take the vaccine". No medication is entirely risk free. And where there is risk there needs to be choice. And "choosing" to lose your job is not choice, it's coercion, which is inappropriate in a medical setting.

These principles matter, deeply, and it's upsetting to see how lightly they are being tossed aside.

I was going to write out a long reply but you've summed up perfectly what I want to write. I'm not an anti vaxxer but I'm strongly against vaccine passports. It's shocking how peoples are so willing to accept them

My employer wanted to know initially who out of us was intending on having the vaccination. I ignored the email (although had the vaccination). There are 20 of us in the office and conversation tended to lean towards vaccines etc. so it was known widely who had had it.

As far as I know there are two colleagues who haven’t been vaccinated. One because he kept missing his appointment and didn’t re book it. The other because she didn’t want to. That was a few months ago though so not sure whether they’ve had it.

The poster who said that in vaccinated employees will be terminated? How can businesses do that? Where I am it’s been categorically said that no employee can be terminated for not being vaccinated. Employers can’t force you to vaccinate.

@DollyDinkle

Oh and bring on your probationary period does not trump employment law FACT, so u you cannot and won't be sacked.

So how does that square up with the care workers who are losing their jobs due to not being vaccinated? I'm assuming their employers have received advice from legal professionals/HR.

OP you are asking the wrong forum.

No its not right that employers are forcing this but on here a lot of people think its 'perfectly fine' to do so because they dont want you to kill the triple vaccinated people...